John Cohen discusses lineup diversity, matchups, Hudson, etc on Out of Bounds

[RocketCityDawg]

What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5th

No one is being switched from 1st to 4th, Coach34. Robson has hit 1st every game. The 8-9 spots have almost entirely been populated by the same guys too. The post that I replied to mentioned 3rd, 5th, and 6th. NO! Not any different approach there. A different approach may be called on by the game situation but not by your lineup spot.

[maroonmania]

This is why baseball season is unbearable on this board. People who coach baseball (I coach 7A in high school here in Alabama) get it and teach it and understand that there are completely different approaches based on your spot in the lineup. People who don't sit on here and moan and complain and don't understand why certain things happen. They just get pissed.

There are some things Cohen does that I don't get as bent out of shape about as most on here. Constant changes in lineup position is one thing that I do get mad about and it's now apparent that a decent number of people on here don't even understand that.

I would love to know the baseball playing and coaching experience of anyone who thinks approaches don't change at the plate based on where you hit in the lineup. My guess is you would have little to none.

I don't really have a dog in the fight but I can kind of see both sides. I mean you set the order for your big sticks to knock in runs and for your high OBP guys to get on in front of them. But however, if your first 3 guys all make outs in the first inning, then when your cleanup guy leads off in the second he is not really in a cleanup role at that point, he is more in a leadoff role but still may not look to walk by working the count or put the ball on the ground just because those aren't his strengths.

[Taog Redloh]

I know you are a regular, but how much coaching and playing experience do you have? If you have a bunch I'll defer to the fact that coaches can have different styles. If not, I think I'll have made my point.

Again, I've seen a few posters on here that disagree. Would love to know your baseball playing and coaching background.

Played in HS, nothing beyond that.

Trust me, being a regular message board poster does not instill competency in anyone. I judge by the content of the posts.

[RocketCityDawg]

I don't really have a dog in the fight but I can kind of see both sides. I mean you set the order for your big sticks to knock in runs and for your high OBP guys to get on in front of them. But however, if your first 3 guys all make outs in the first inning, then when your cleanup guy leads off in the second he is not really in a cleanup role at that point, he is more in a leadoff role but still may not look to walk by working the count or put the ball on the ground just because those aren't his strengths.

Exactly! The game situation dictates the approach along with your skill set. Just because I'm in the leadoff spot doesn't mean I'm fast and need to bunt for a hit and steal. Just because I'm in the 4 hole doesn't mean I need to swing for the fences every time.

[BB30]

I wouldn't say there is a different approach. You might be asked to do different things but the approach should never change by the spot in the lineup you hit. Obviously guys that can drive in runs will be in 3-4-5-8 but that doesnt mean their approach at the plate is different just that their skill set is different. Naturally your lead off will be a guy that finds his way on a lot and can run but again that is a skill set not an approach. Every hitters approach in general is hunt the FB adjust to off speed. Just because your 3/4/5 guys can hit it out of the park and drive the gaps does not mean you want them swinging at everything they see just like you don't want your lead off passing up a FB in a FB count.

[AROB44]

It all depends on what the definition of "it" is......

[QuadrupleOption]

I know you are a regular, but how much coaching and playing experience do you have? If you have a bunch I'll defer to the fact that coaches can have different styles. If not, I think I'll have made my point.

Again, I've seen a few posters on here that disagree. Would love to know your baseball playing and coaching background.

I have no coaching experience to speak of, but I'm not really sure how your overall batting approach changes depending on where you are in the order.

Wouldn't it depend more on things like skill set, # of outs, # of men on base, and whether your team is ahead or behind? If the person batting 4th in the lineup comes up and there's no one on, wouldn't his approach differ than if he came to bat with 2 people on?

I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but as someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of baseball, it seems like the primary purpose of batting is to get on base and drive runs in. That shouldn't change no matter where you are in the order.

[Jarius]

Usually certain batters in the order have certain skill sets, but your approach at the plate is (or should be for most hitters) dependent upon the situation you are in during that particular at bat. If you come up with a man on second and no outs, hit a ground ball to the right side and move him to third base. If you come up with a runner at 3rd and less than 2 outs with the infield in, try to hit it in the air deep enough to score the run. If the infield is back, hit it on the ground.

[Todd4State]

This is why baseball season is unbearable on this board. People who coach baseball (I coach 7A in high school here in Alabama) get it and teach it and understand that there are completely different approaches based on your spot in the lineup. People who don't sit on here and moan and complain and don't understand why certain things happen. They just get pissed.

There are some things Cohen does that I don't get as bent out of shape about as most on here. Constant changes in lineup position is one thing that I do get mad about and it's now apparent that a decent number of people on here don't even understand that.

I would love to know the baseball playing and coaching experience of anyone who thinks approaches don't change at the plate based on where you hit in the lineup. My guess is you would have little to none.

I respect what you are saying but I would also imagine that with high school players where they bat is going to matter more to them and be more of an issue with them just because they aren't as mature as players and adults compared to a professional hitter or even a SEC level college player.

And there is no question that hitting leadoff is much different than hitting clean up or ninth or whatever in terms of approach. Although I would say that hitting leadoff is probably the most specialized of any of the spots in the order probably followed by the number two hitter. Hitting approach also changes based on the in game situation and that probably affects how a hitter approaches an at bat more than anything- or at least it should. If you have runners on second and third and less than two outs you want to at the very least hit a deep fly ball or hit the ball to the right side of the infield for example- and that doesn't change no matter where you are hitting in the lineup.

One thing I do know is as far as the minors go sometimes managers will change where a hitter bats in the lineup to see how they handle it on a professional level and also to challenge them as a player to see how they react to hitting in a prime spot or how they handle being dropped in the order. And while I have never coached high school baseball, I have heard minor league managers talk about that. So, to me what Cohen does from that standpoint will help them moving forward once they leave MSU if they continue their career beyond MSU. That's one big reason why I've never been too upset about moving guys around. Plus it's not like we have Reid Humphreys batting leadoff or something crazy like that. (Yet)

[engie]

What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5th

How many times in a game does that player hit first?

Sure -- there are some minor situational differences in what you are asked to do based on who is behind you, etc... But to pretend that we need a set lineup 1-9 to be able to perform is asinine. If it bothers guys so much that they can't perform while hitting 6th because they want to hit 4th -- they are pussies that are going to crumble under the first real adversity they see anyway. Not who I want at MSU. Not a guy that will see success under Cohen.

[engie]

No one is being switched from 1st to 4th, Coach34. Robson has hit 1st every game. The 8-9 spots have almost entirely been populated by the same guys too. The post that I replied to mentioned 3rd, 5th, and 6th. NO! Not any different approach there. A different approach may be called on by the game situation but not by your lineup spot.

Bingo

[Dawg62]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/167898...-pirates-order

McCutchen embraces move to No. 2 in order
Pirates slugger had second-most at-bats in NL last year with two outs and bases empty

[shoeless joe]

How many times in a game does that player hit first?

Sure -- there are some minor situational differences in what you are asked to do based on who is behind you, etc... But to pretend that we need a set lineup 1-9 to be able to perform is asinine. If it bothers guys so much that they can't perform while hitting 6th because they want to hit 4th -- they are pussies that are going to crumble under the first real adversity they see anyway. Not who I want at MSU. Not a guy that will see success under Cohen.

This is it.

Also, it's not as much approach...although that can situationally change...as it is the fact if what you are going to see from a pitcher depending on where someone hits. Especially on the high school level but even as one climbs the ladder. A 7,8,9 guy is more likely to get a fastball, especially, in fastball counts, because it's assumed they're not as good. A top to mid order guy is more likely to see off speed in a hitters count. Who is behind or ahead of a guy could determine pitch selection as well.

I don't get as bent out of shape about the line up as most. I think it could have an affect but not so much on approach. I can see a comfort factor coming into play but I never once remember being pissed about where I hit because I wasn't "comfortable" in that spot.

[sleepy dawg]

Our lineup is the most consistent of all... consistently different.

[Coach34]

I don't get as bent out of shape about the line up as most. I think it could have an affect but not so much on approach. I can see a comfort factor coming into play but I never once remember being pissed about where I hit because I wasn't "comfortable" in that spot.

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

[engie]

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

So what you are saying is -- a little forced adversity turns them into head case ******s? It embarrassed you so bad you wanted to take your ball and go home?

Every single point in that post describes guys that I do not want at MSU. Not under this regime.

There was a time I was 4th every day behind a 3 time collegiate all-American. 2 spots behind an all-sec guy that holds a bunch of records. With all that protection and all those ducks on the pond, comfort actually made me less of a hitter. I thrived off adversity and perceived slights. Played better pissed off and doubted. THAT is what is/will be successful under this regime at MSU. If guys need all the coddling you are talking about -- they were dumb asses to sign with MSU in the first place. They've had half their lifetime now to know exactly what they were going to get from Cohen.

Everyone knows who Cohen is. Yet a bunch of you suddenly up and decided they want him to be Ron Polk. I just don't get it.

[shoeless joe]

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

100% sure I stated that comfort could be a factor. I just don't think it is THE factor in individual success or failure. If it is then there are other factors that will affect success as well.

I could sit here and name off all these D1, professional, and big league guys I played with, against, for, and coached to try to further my point...but the fact still remains that there are multiple successful approaches to the game and the one who claims to know it all generally knows the least.

[Coach34]

So what you are saying is -- a little forced adversity turns them into head case ******s? It embarrassed you so bad you wanted to take your ball and go home?

Every single point in that post describes guys that I do not want at MSU. Not under this regime.

There was a time I was 4th every day behind a 3 time collegiate all-American. 2 spots behind an all-sec guy that holds a bunch of records. With all that protection and all those ducks on the pond, comfort actually made me less of a hitter. I thrived off adversity and perceived slights. Played better pissed off and doubted. THAT is what is/will be successful under this regime at MSU. If guys need all the coddling you are talking about -- they were dumb asses to sign with MSU in the first place. They've had half their lifetime now to know exactly what they were going to get from Cohen.

Everyone knows who Cohen is. Yet a bunch of you suddenly up and decided they want him to be Ron Polk. I just don't get it.

whether you want them at State or not- that's the reality. And no matter who you recruit-
you will have those guys on your team. As long as Cohen plays musical chairs line-ups- we will continue to be an up and down team. It's not a coincidence the best team he has had is the one he finally quit moving around constantly in 2013.

[BrunswickDawg]

Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.

My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball

Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line

Definitely played with guys like that. Batting order never bothered me. Most of the time I was a 1 or 2. If I got bumped down, I usually took it as a challenge to get my ass out of a slump to earn that top of the order spot. I was a super utility guy, and could handle any position move - except moving in-game to SS. I was not a natural SS and that throw could play tricks with me if I didn't have a lot of warm up pre-game at the position. THAT would get me out of any comfort zone, and usually effect my hitting and fielding. I was thinking too much.

[Big4Dawg]

So looking at this, no one is moving from 2nd to 8th as some of you are describing. We are talking about 1-2 spots. The biggest is Lowe and that is because he has started hitting better. Do you think Kruger matters if he hits 2nd or 3rd? Collins cares if he's hitting 4th or 5th? Hump cares if 5th or 6th? LA cares if 8th or 9th? No. This is a stupid argument.