Ross Mitchell

[sbcmortgageman]

Good lord people. We just won our 40th game and Ross is a great pitcher. If you don't understand that I cannot help you.

[Will James]

Guy I put a lot of stats out there. It's not all part of some grand argument. They mean different things. A few weeks ago he had a low BABIP when I brought that up.

A different point is the one about wins and ERA. That goes for all pitchers.

A different stat is SIERA. That looks at just pitcher vs batter results. Not dependent on who is on base, fielders, etc.

[sbcmortgageman]

I understand that. It's just that every time I get on a message board folks are wanting to argue over who's the most knowledgable. We just won our 40th game and should host a regional. It's time for some folks to be positive.

[Coach34]

How good could Ross Mitchell be if he didn't suck so bad?

who said Ross Mitchell sux? Will James didnt....

[Coach34]

Will points out the 6-13 .

Well, he actually has a very valid point there. More than 50% of the time- Mitchell allowed inherited runners to score. For a reliever, that's not good. It doesnt make a mother-**** what his ERA is. You bring relievers in to shut the door- not just give up inherited runs.

Holder's run in Game 2 didnt hurt his ERA either- but it was a very damn important inherited runner we needed to keep from scoring. That could have been a season changing run had we lost today also

[Will James]

I'm curious to see if you'll provide a breakdown of inherited runners scored among the entire bullpen to prove your current position.

These numbers are just for innings where they have entered, not innings they have started.

Ross. 14 appearances. Average # of outs when entering: 0.93. Inherited runners: 29. Inherited runners scored:13. Inherited % score. 45%

Girodo. 12 appearances. Average # of outs when entering: 0.75. Inherited runners: 17. Inherited runners scored: 5. Inherited % score: 29%

Holder. 11 appearances. Average # of outs when entering: 0.55. Inherited runners: 16. Inherited runners scored: 2. Inherited % score: 13%.

Like Coach says, it doesn't make a mother **** what any relief pitcher's ERA is. That's not their job.

ETA: In these situations Ross records an out in 74% of plate appearances. Girodo only 61%. But a lot more of Girodo's are K's which limits his runners from advancing/scoring.

[CadaverDawg]

Wow. Impressed with those stats. That is some interesting data, and makes me feel even better about wondering why we went with Ross with RISP instead of Girodo. Interesting. And good proof of your argument.

Me thinks if you would learn to present your data in a more humble and more easily understood way....you would be a great poster in their eyes.

I have learned to sift through the arrogance and self righteousness and see the points you are attempting to make....so I think you bring up great points and good info, and I actually agree with you on a majority of what you post. If everyone else would just quit worrying about the "look at me" parts of your posts, and focus on the facts, they would enjoy having you around.

One thing's for sure, Will wants MSU success as much or more than anyone else on this board. I can appreciate that.

[Todd4State]

Wow. Impressed with those stats. That is some interesting data, and makes me feel even better about wondering why we went with Ross with RISP instead of Girodo. Interesting. And good proof of your argument.

Me thinks if you would learn to present your data in a more humble and more easily understood way....you would be a great poster in their eyes.

I have learned to sift through the arrogance and self righteousness and see the points you are attempting to make....so I think you bring up great points and good info, and I actually agree with you on a majority of what you post. If everyone else would just quit worrying about the "look at me" parts of your posts, and focus on the facts, they would enjoy having you around.

One thing's for sure, Will wants MSU success as much or more than anyone else on this board. I can appreciate that.

It's important to pick the right stat too. If your point is that a pitcher allows a lot of inherited runners to score, it's a lot better and more relevant to use inherited runners and a stat called holds which is a cousin of saves rather than BABIP and SIERA.

[CadaverDawg]

It's important to pick the right stat too. If your point is that a pitcher allows a lot of inherited runners to score, it's a lot better and more relevant to use inherited runners and a stat called holds which is a cousin of saves rather than BABIP and SIERA.

Very true. Sometimes a mere explanation can be more effective than a bunch of stats anyway. At least at first. And then if others want to argue it, THEN pull out your stats. But again, make sure they are the right stats.

[Will James]

It's important to pick the right stat too. If your point is that a pitcher allows a lot of inherited runners to score, it's a lot better and more relevant to use inherited runners and a stat called holds which is a cousin of saves rather than BABIP and SIERA.

BABIP and SIERA were different posts than this one. They weren't related points.

[Todd4State]

BABIP and SIERA were different posts than this one. They weren't related points.

I'm trying to help you out here.

[The Croom Diaries]

These numbers are just for innings where they have entered, not innings they have started.

Ross. 14 appearances. Average # of outs when entering: 0.93. Inherited runners: 29. Inherited runners scored:13. Inherited % score. 45%

Girodo. 12 appearances. Average # of outs when entering: 0.75. Inherited runners: 17. Inherited runners scored: 5. Inherited % score: 29%

Holder. 11 appearances. Average # of outs when entering: 0.55. Inherited runners: 16. Inherited runners scored: 2. Inherited % score: 13%.

Like Coach says, it doesn't make a mother **** what any relief pitcher's ERA is. That's not their job.

ETA: In these situations Ross records an out in 74% of plate appearances. Girodo only 61%. But a lot more of Girodo's are K's which limits his runners from advancing/scoring.

There you go. You were correct that Ross Mitchell is not the best option out of the pen with runners on base.

You and Coach are wrong about a reliever's ERA not meaning anything, though. Mitchell's absolutely does because he is a long reliever who goes 3-6 innings all the time. Saying the amount of runs he gives up doesn't matter is stupid. I'm sure if you took only the innings he started himself his ERA would go from about 1.2 to 1.4. I know you don't believe in ERA, but that's beside the point. A guy like Mitchell's ERA does matter - it shows his value a lot more than a guy like Girodo who comes in for a couple of outs....if you want to dismiss his ERA that is fine.

P.S. Everyone knows this entire Ross Mitchell debate was interconnected. You changed your stance to derive at a point that would be accepted. You won't admit that since you won't admit to being wrong, but everyone knows it true - if I'm wrong someone call me out.

Conclusion: Ross Mitchell is an excellent (not lucky) pitcher who should only be brought in to start innings because he allows too many inherited runners to score.

[Will James]

You and Coach are wrong about a reliever's ERA not meaning anything, though.

There is a reason the 3 highest ERA's of qualified pitchers in SEC play are the starters.

There is a reason that the 6 relief pitchers with the most appearances during the season all have lower ERA's than our starters.

That's not the only reason I dismiss ERA though.

[Coach34]

You and Coach are wrong about a reliever's ERA not meaning anything, though.

Let me say it this way so we can all agree- ERA can be extremely misleading and never tells the entire story....example?

Holder ERA was over 3.00 earlier this year because of one bad outing in long relief that caused it to take a big climb. His ERA at that time was in no way indicative of the truly special closer he is.

I think you guys now see Will's point better, and that he is indeed correct- and he understands he can come off looking like a dick

[Will James]

I'm sure if you took only the innings he started himself his ERA would go from about 1.2 to 1.4.

These numbers for Ross, Chad, Holder, and BB are coming soon

[The Croom Diaries]

ERA can be extremely misleading and never tells the entire story.

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement with regards to relief pitchers, however not all relief pitchers are the same. Ross is basically in a category by himself on this team and that's the % of his innings logged where he has started and completed them. Hell, he has more innings than everyone on the team except for Graveman and Pollorena. He's pitched 15 more innings than Lindgren. If he was entering with 2 outs in the 7th and leaving with 1 out in the 8th it would be a lot different, but most of the time he's coming in during the 3rd or 4th and staying until the 7th or 8th, or even finishing the game.

[Dallas_Dawg]

It's fun getting y'all all worked up.

[Will James]

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement with regards to relief pitchers, however not all relief pitchers are the same. Ross is basically in a category by himself on this team and that's the % of his innings logged where he has started and completed them. Hell, he has more innings than everyone on the team except for Graveman and Pollorena. He's pitched 15 more innings than Lindgren. If he was entering with 2 outs in the 7th and leaving with 1 out in the 8th it would be a lot different, but most of the time he's coming in during the 3rd or 4th and staying until the 7th or 8th, or even finishing the game.

SEC Only Numbers. These are just the innings started by each pitcher.

Mitchell, R... 25.1 IP.. 7 ER.. 2.51 ERA.

Bracewell... 15.2 IP... 2 ER... 1.18 ERA.

Holder....... 10 IP... 1 ER...... 0.90 ERA.

Girodo....... 9.1 IP... 2 ER..... 1.98 ERA.

[Will James]

but most of the time he's coming in during the 3rd or 4th and staying until the 7th or 8th, or even finishing the game.

This is another meme. In his 15 SEC appearances he's only gone more than 3 innings 3 times.

This is why you have to look at the stats, everyone remembers the few times he's finished out long relief performances and that skews the overall body of work. This happens in all areas of sports. Like the Renfroe thing earlier in the year about RISP. At the point it was brought up the meme was that he hadnt been very good when in reality he was hitting .500 and had an OBP over .700. Now granted he's fallen off of that lately but at the time it was a meme based on feeling not on fact.

[The Croom Diaries]

SEC Only Numbers. These are just the innings started by each pitcher.

Mitchell, R... 25.1 IP.. 7 ER.. 2.51 ERA.

Bracewell... 15.2 IP... 2 ER... 1.18 ERA.

Holder....... 10 IP... 1 ER...... 0.90 ERA.

Girodo....... 9.1 IP... 2 ER..... 1.98 ERA.

Here are the numbers when these 4 start AND finish an inning (because as you say the reliever coming in behind him should be able to shut the door) in SEC play-

Mitchell.....24 IP....4 ER.....1.50 ERA

Bracewell....14 IP....0 ER.....0.00 ERA

Girodo.....7 IP.....0 ER.....0.00 ERA

Holder.....18 IP....1 ER....0.50 ERA

So, all of these pitchers are very good when starting and finishing their own innings. And If you take out that 3-run homer Mitchell gave up vs. Alabama his ERA is 0.39 (I say that because one bad inning is inflating it to a massive 1.50).