Yeah, but limiting it to just innings that you start and finish really has no meaning whatsoever.
All of this is why I like to just look at stats that measure hitter vs pitcher.
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Yeah, but limiting it to just innings that you start and finish really has no meaning whatsoever.
All of this is why I like to just look at stats that measure hitter vs pitcher.
Clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
He has gone AT LEAST 3.0 innings 5 times in SEC play. If you count the Govorner's Cup ((against a SEC team (RPI #18) where he went 6)) it's 6 in 16. He also went 6 against Memphis (RPI #96), 4.2 vs. Austin Peay (RPI #29), 4.0 vs. Southern Miss, 3.0 vs. Central ARK (RPI #81), 3.0 vs. St. Joe's, 6.0 vs. Samford,
He has gone at least 2.0 innings another 3 times in SEC play. So out of 15 SEC appearances, he has gone at least 2 innings 8 times. But look at those non-conference games. 32.2 IP over the course of 7 games and 4 of them were vs. top 100 teams, 2 of them vs. top 50 teams....and we won 6 of those 7 (UCA).
Doesn't it eliminate the "luck" factor? If you are starting and finishing your own inning, then there is not another pitcher to inherit your runners and let them score.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
To this point, pitcher A may leave 2 on with 2 out in Game 1 and pitcher C comes in and allows both of them to score. Then in Game 2 pitcher B leaves 2 on with 2 out and the same pitcher C comes in and gets the out before either run scores.
You could MAYBE look at starting pitchers innings started and finished but even then I think it would be worthless. Any relief pitcher allowed to start and finish an inning will have limited earned runs. If a RP gets in any trouble they are replaced. Relief innings started AND finished yields nothing of value.
Sure it does. My point is that Ross is an innings eater and he puts up a bunch of zeros on the scoreboard. Girodo's started and finished innings don't have much value because he has 7 of them, but Mitchell has 24 plus all the non-conference games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
Mitchell typically comes in when the starter doesn't have it and he eats through the middle innings keeping the other team down allowing our offense a chance to come back or extend the lead in the game. That's his value. With our starting pitching which half the time struggles to get past the 4th or 5th inning, we need a guy to come in and give up 3 or 4, maybe more innings if we want a chance to win. Ross not only fills that role, but he does so without allowing hardly any runs....most of the time none.
I see your point about how the head coach will just lift a relief pitcher if he's in trouble or tiring so obviously if he finished an inning then he is doing well, but that also speaks to my point in that Ross is almost always doing well so Cohen doesn't have to take him out, he just keeps going and going and going..
Yes, ERA can be misleading. That's why even before Bill James was even born people were judging players with several stats grouped together. Traditionally it was W/L record, K/BB ratio and ERA and if it's a reliever it was saves. ERA is not and never was meant to be an all-encompassing stat. And I don't know anyone that judges a pitcher simply on ERA alone. Over the years, other stats have come along like WHIP and things like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I could say that Dave Kingman should have won the MVP in 1982 because he hit 37 home runs which lead the league. What I didn't tell you is he also led the league in strike outs and hit .204 on the year.
The bottom line is if we are truly trying to determine the value of a player, the best thing to use is WAR. You wouldn't use BABIP or ERA.
And the referee is starting his count: 1..... 2....... 3...... And the winner is NOT Will. Ding ding ding.
This was a loser leave the board for a week. Bye WJ.
again, why not just start mitchell. He comes in after our starter has shit the bed and usually throws 5 innings or scoreless ball. Just start him, bring girardo or bracewell in for a couple of innings and then holder. Automatic W. Let Pollo take ross' role as a middle reliever.
hell, ross could throw 6 on friday and come back and give you 2 or 3 on sunday.
Because Ross is a "change of pace" guy. He would probably not be nearly as effective if he didn't follow a guy that brought it 90 mph or better. It's a lot easier to key in on a 82 mph fastball when you haven't seen anything harder that same day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
We don't need to use any stat at all. We can just use our eyes. They say Ross is a great pitcher, one of the most valuable players on the team. He is a winner. End of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
It can work both ways. See Jamie Moyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
Not saying it can't...but I don't want to experiment with it for the first time in the post season, when we KNOW it works the way we've been using him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Lulz I've used nothing but statistical facts. It's logically impossible for me to be wrong or "the loser"Quote:
Originally Posted by Drugdog
statistically, renfroe is our best hitter with risp. I doubt a single person on this board wants him batting with the game on the line though. Stats are fun but dont mean much. Dead horse beaten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
Not to be an ass, but I DO want Renfroe up with the game on the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
that is fine. I take Adam Frazier with the game on the line. All day, every day. Renfroe hasnt proven he can be clutch at all. Ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
"at all. Ever." ? May want to rethink that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
he isnt. Since I brought it up a few weeks ago and took a ton of shit, I believe he is about 1 for 16 with RISP since then. He also only gets hits when it doesnt count. Why does he hit solo HRs in the 9th down 6 or up 4 all the time? Maybe it is a coincidence. He has had PLENTY of opportunity to prove me wrong the past month and hasnt. Without frazier, we get swept by OM and lose 2 of 3 to USC. Frazier is our leader.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
Wow, what a short term memory you have. You seem to forget the first 2/3's of the season when Frazier was struggling but Hunter was mashing. I know you have a problem with WJ, but saying stuff like "he only gets hits when it doesn't count", is just dumb as shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
I think you are letting your current frustration with Renfroe cloud your judgement on how good he has been this season. You can't ignore what he's done for us the previous 45 games just because he has struggled in the last 11
that isnt it. I brought it up 2 weeks ago and since then, people have been paying attention to it. Basically, it is something I noticed all year long. When I brought it to light, it has been a constant on the board since. Renfroe has been the same all year.
We dont really have anyone clutch. Frazier is our best, as of late. Bottom line, not just past 2 weeks, when game is on line, RISP with the game within a run or 2, renfroe has been shit. It isnt a 2 week phenomenom.
Edit - Do you think randomly, 2 weeks ago, I decided to just pick on our best player and say he wasnt clutch? Guy leading SEC in hrs and BA and slugging? No. It was something I noticed (by watching every single game we have played and not reading stat sheets) and when I brought it to light, people have been paying attention to it. That is it and all. Hunter is our best player. Period. He isnt a guy I want up there with the game on the line though.
Don't pull a muscle patting yourself on the back....msstate7, WJ, and myself had had the same conversation about Hunter in a game thread before you ever brought it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
And secondly, You're wrong about him not being clutch ALL Year. We would have been in trouble without Hunter. Basically, you have gone full tard because WJ has made you so mad. If you think Hunter has been the same all year as he has lately, then you havent paid attention.
And another thing.....We ALL watch all of the games so quit acting like you watch more baseball than anybody that reads the board.
By the way, explain how Renfroe could be "shit" all year with RISP, yet he leads the team in RBI's? How does that happen if you're "shit"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
Id imagine that if what I said was wrong, WJ would have a chart by now. It has been 2 weeks? Me pat myself on the back? Please.
Put up some sort of chart that with RISP and the game within 1 run or 2 runs or whatever, who is our best hitter. If Im wrong, Ill gladly admit it. However, I have watched, EVERY SINGLE GAME THIS YEAR. All I am saying is when it counts, Hunter hasnt been clutch. I brought it up 2 weeks ago and it has spun out of control a little. Hunter is still our best player, no doubt.
Again, I'm not saying he's been great with RISP...but "shit"? Think about how stupid that sounds when talking about our RBI leader.
GODDAMIT. DROP THE RISP.
That isnt what I have ever said. I admitted that he leads the team in HR and RISP and all that shit. Im just saying, when it matters, he isnt there. Like, he is clutch when we are creaming someone or down 5 runs or when nobody is on and down 6. When it is a 1 run game and RISP, he has shit the bed all year. Again, he can go 9-10 while we are up or down 5 with RISP and then go 1-10 like he has the past weekend (when it is close and matters. 1 run/2 run game with RISP) and his avg is still great. That doesnt make him clutch.
Maybe WJ can come up with a clutch formula.
Again....we've all watched EVERY SINGLE GAME THIS YEAR, so quit using that like it means somethingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
And again...You're WRONG by saying "all year". Thats my issue, and Im right
Why don't you provide us with Renfroes numbers after the 7th inning in 3 runs or less margin games. We here at ED like to have arguments backed up with facts.
where is your chart saying Im wrong? Ill gladly admit it if I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
He doesn't need stats or facts because HE WATCHED EVERY SINGLE GAME!Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
The thing about Hunter is while he has obviously produced, none of his hits are particularly memorable. I don't think you can measure memorable with a stat because that is something that is in the eye of the beholder and is totally subjective. Sort of like Steve Gendron had a lot of hits, but I honestly don't remember any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
Are David Freese, Kirk Gibson, and Carlton Fisk the most clutch players in MLB history? Probably not statistically if you analyze it, but they did things in the clutch that were memorable in big moments.
As far as Hunter, I think a lot of people remember him coming up with the bases loaded against LSU when we were tied and striking out and then going on to lose the game, and now in crunch time he is struggling in general.
Adam Frazier on the other hand had a GREAT at bat in the Governor's Cup that drove in the eventual winning runs despite just missing getting a hit twice in a row. A lot of our fans were there and remember that. Also, again recently against Ole Miss, he had the game winning hit to complete a huge comeback from being down 6-0 and then this weekend he again had the go ahead hit against South Carolina that helped complete a big comeback win.
Im not a chart guy. Why dont YOU do it. You have a chart for our leadoff hitter drinking a diet coke on a tuesday, Im sure you can find time. Why stop it at 7 innings? Why not all innings? Put your chart together. If Im wrong, I will GLADLY admit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
I have cadaver and now youre just being a little bitch. WJ mfin Chart james would have charted it if I was wrong....he charts every GD stat there is. why not this one?
you know what, this is stupid. I'll actually take the time to put together the numbers tomorrow or tuesday. What is the criteria. RISP with the game within 1 run? 2 runs? Tying run (renfroe) at the plate? What is the criteria?Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
Its your point not mine. Its not up to me to prove you wrong. You find the info backing up YOUR argument or me and Cadaver will continue to laugh at your opinion of not wanting Renfroe to hit in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
ok. Let me know the criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
And I will continue to watch Renfroe Strike out with the game on the line, like he has all season. Hey, but if he goes 6 for 6 with RISP versus MVSU and his average is .375, it doesnt matter, right?
Ennis, personal attacks are a sign of defeat, and name calling is both childish AND against the ED rules as a bannable offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ennis Del Mar
Quit being so damn sensitive. If you wouldn't use words like "all year", "never", and "always", your points could be taken seriously. One thing about facts and stats....they take emotion like yours out of the equation
fair enough, I wont be banned. I will chart it tomorrow. It will be a slow day. All I have to do is pack for HOover.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
So what is the criteria? I like the 1 or 2 run situation with RISP.......but Ill gladly take whatever you guys say.