John Cohen stopped by today. Good interview on the season & players.
According to a little research, MSU has the most consistent daily starting unit of any SEC team.
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That's hard to believe that Cohen has the most consistent starting lineup in the SEC.
It's a different lineup every game. Research is bunk.
I could see that. I mean they rarely bat in the same order but most of the regulars are usually in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Then there is nothing consistent about itQuote:
Originally Posted by maroonmania
This. It's mostly the same guys so far this year, but almost none of them bat in the same spot two days in a row. Robson is virtually the lone exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by maroonmania
I don't mind him switching up what spot in the order people hit in as much as switching up who plays every day. Very pleased to this point.
Yeah anyone saying that we have a consistent lineup is nuts. Just because the same guys are in it doesn't mean it's consistent. If I bat 3rd on Friday, 5th on Saturday, and 6th on Sunday, I have 3 completely different plate approaches each game. That's not consistent.
#Cohening #MeddlerQuote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
I've been telling people for how long now that Cohen isn't the only one to make changes to the lineup?
No you don't. That's insane to believe that. Your approach is not dictated by your spot in the order. It's dictated by the situation in the game which is completely independent of your place in the batting order.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
I normally really enjoy your posts, but this is insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
What???? Your approach hitting 1st is far different than hitting 4th....an approach in the 8-9 spot is different from hitting 5thQuote:
Originally Posted by RocketCityDawg
As I've stated before, its moving people around in the infield that bothers me the most, even moreso than the batting order. But its gotten better. He is leaving Collins at 3rd now, for better or worse and mostly playing LA and RG at SS and 2nd. I don't mind the OF rotating as much because they don't have as many things to keep up with out there and plays to make as infielders do. But in summary, even if you are playing the same basic 8 guys but rarely play them in the same position in the field or bat them in the same order, then there is nothing really that consistent about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
No, it isn't. At least, it shouldn't be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
This is why baseball season is unbearable on this board. People who coach baseball (I coach 7A in high school here in Alabama) get it and teach it and understand that there are completely different approaches based on your spot in the lineup. People who don't sit on here and moan and complain and don't understand why certain things happen. They just get pissed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
There are some things Cohen does that I don't get as bent out of shape about as most on here. Constant changes in lineup position is one thing that I do get mad about and it's now apparent that a decent number of people on here don't even understand that.
I would love to know the baseball playing and coaching experience of anyone who thinks approaches don't change at the plate based on where you hit in the lineup. My guess is you would have little to none.
This just in: the things everyone criticizes Cohen for are things just about every college coach does. I'm not saying they're all correct decisions, but they're par for the course in college managers.
I went to see Kyle Lewis play at Mercer, and their coach bunted constantly. They were all dumb decisions and basically all hurt their ability to score runs, but they still did it.
So we're now determining what is smart based on what pro managers do? Guess what, pro managers are dumb, too. Fredi Gonzalez once guessed that Jordan Schafer's .280ish OBP was better than Jason Heyward's .360ish OBP without the stats in front of him. And both guys played for him on a daily basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
Baseball managers at all levels are way behind the curve on many things.
We have 4 guys I know on the board that have won a state title or a state coach of the year trophy- including myself. We have one that has served as a college baseball GA. We have 3 guys I know of that are former State baseball players- but 2 rarely post. One thing I see from these posters- they pretty much agree for the most part. Welcome to the groupQuote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
It's starting to become pretty clear that it doesn't take much sense to coach high school baseball.
I know you are a regular, but how much coaching and playing experience do you have? If you have a bunch I'll defer to the fact that coaches can have different styles. If not, I think I'll have made my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taog Redloh
Again, I've seen a few posters on here that disagree. Would love to know your baseball playing and coaching background.
No one is being switched from 1st to 4th, Coach34. Robson has hit 1st every game. The 8-9 spots have almost entirely been populated by the same guys too. The post that I replied to mentioned 3rd, 5th, and 6th. NO! Not any different approach there. A different approach may be called on by the game situation but not by your lineup spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I don't really have a dog in the fight but I can kind of see both sides. I mean you set the order for your big sticks to knock in runs and for your high OBP guys to get on in front of them. But however, if your first 3 guys all make outs in the first inning, then when your cleanup guy leads off in the second he is not really in a cleanup role at that point, he is more in a leadoff role but still may not look to walk by working the count or put the ball on the ground just because those aren't his strengths.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
Played in HS, nothing beyond that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
Trust me, being a regular message board poster does not instill competency in anyone. I judge by the content of the posts.
Exactly! The game situation dictates the approach along with your skill set. Just because I'm in the leadoff spot doesn't mean I'm fast and need to bunt for a hit and steal. Just because I'm in the 4 hole doesn't mean I need to swing for the fences every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by maroonmania
I wouldn't say there is a different approach. You might be asked to do different things but the approach should never change by the spot in the lineup you hit. Obviously guys that can drive in runs will be in 3-4-5-8 but that doesnt mean their approach at the plate is different just that their skill set is different. Naturally your lead off will be a guy that finds his way on a lot and can run but again that is a skill set not an approach. Every hitters approach in general is hunt the FB adjust to off speed. Just because your 3/4/5 guys can hit it out of the park and drive the gaps does not mean you want them swinging at everything they see just like you don't want your lead off passing up a FB in a FB count.
It all depends on what the definition of "it" is......
I have no coaching experience to speak of, but I'm not really sure how your overall batting approach changes depending on where you are in the order.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
Wouldn't it depend more on things like skill set, # of outs, # of men on base, and whether your team is ahead or behind? If the person batting 4th in the lineup comes up and there's no one on, wouldn't his approach differ than if he came to bat with 2 people on?
I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but as someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of baseball, it seems like the primary purpose of batting is to get on base and drive runs in. That shouldn't change no matter where you are in the order.
Usually certain batters in the order have certain skill sets, but your approach at the plate is (or should be for most hitters) dependent upon the situation you are in during that particular at bat. If you come up with a man on second and no outs, hit a ground ball to the right side and move him to third base. If you come up with a runner at 3rd and less than 2 outs with the infield in, try to hit it in the air deep enough to score the run. If the infield is back, hit it on the ground.
I respect what you are saying but I would also imagine that with high school players where they bat is going to matter more to them and be more of an issue with them just because they aren't as mature as players and adults compared to a professional hitter or even a SEC level college player.Quote:
Originally Posted by MetEdDawg
And there is no question that hitting leadoff is much different than hitting clean up or ninth or whatever in terms of approach. Although I would say that hitting leadoff is probably the most specialized of any of the spots in the order probably followed by the number two hitter. Hitting approach also changes based on the in game situation and that probably affects how a hitter approaches an at bat more than anything- or at least it should. If you have runners on second and third and less than two outs you want to at the very least hit a deep fly ball or hit the ball to the right side of the infield for example- and that doesn't change no matter where you are hitting in the lineup.
One thing I do know is as far as the minors go sometimes managers will change where a hitter bats in the lineup to see how they handle it on a professional level and also to challenge them as a player to see how they react to hitting in a prime spot or how they handle being dropped in the order. And while I have never coached high school baseball, I have heard minor league managers talk about that. So, to me what Cohen does from that standpoint will help them moving forward once they leave MSU if they continue their career beyond MSU. That's one big reason why I've never been too upset about moving guys around. Plus it's not like we have Reid Humphreys batting leadoff or something crazy like that. (Yet)
How many times in a game does that player hit first?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Sure -- there are some minor situational differences in what you are asked to do based on who is behind you, etc... But to pretend that we need a set lineup 1-9 to be able to perform is asinine. If it bothers guys so much that they can't perform while hitting 6th because they want to hit 4th -- they are pussies that are going to crumble under the first real adversity they see anyway. Not who I want at MSU. Not a guy that will see success under Cohen.
BingoQuote:
Originally Posted by RocketCityDawg
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/167898...-pirates-order
McCutchen embraces move to No. 2 in order
Pirates slugger had second-most at-bats in NL last year with two outs and bases empty
This is it.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Also, it's not as much approach...although that can situationally change...as it is the fact if what you are going to see from a pitcher depending on where someone hits. Especially on the high school level but even as one climbs the ladder. A 7,8,9 guy is more likely to get a fastball, especially, in fastball counts, because it's assumed they're not as good. A top to mid order guy is more likely to see off speed in a hitters count. Who is behind or ahead of a guy could determine pitch selection as well.
I don't get as bent out of shape about the line up as most. I think it could have an affect but not so much on approach. I can see a comfort factor coming into play but I never once remember being pissed about where I hit because I wasn't "comfortable" in that spot.
Our lineup is the most consistent of all... consistently different.
Well, just because you didnt doesnt mean others dont. Baseball players are worst people in the world to deal with out of "comfort zone". I absolutely hated not being in the 4 spot but could deal with 5th or 6th. I got thrown in the 8th spot a couple of times and was absolutely embarrassed to the point I'd just as soon had not played. It goes on with players on every team.Quote:
Originally Posted by shoeless joe
My last 2 teams had a SS that had tons of talent- but was a headcase. He had always batted 3rd, been a bigtime all-star, legion world series champ, etc. I came in and moved him to leadoff. He batted lefty, could fly, and hit for a little power- but not alot. He fought it, whined, threw bats and helmets which of course got him pulled from games. Begged to be removed from leadoff. Halfway thru the season he finally accepted it and embraced it. Went on a tear and we won 20 of our last 22 games. He had a great Sr season and went on to play 4 years of college baseball
Now then- My SS was an extreme case. But from my personal experience, talking to teammates over 20 years I played, and then coaching I can promise you its there. Baseball players are tempermental- and constant change is not a good thing. Hitters need a comfort level that constant shuffling doesnt give them. It does matter where someone hits- and that is why baseball stat people keep stats on it. Hell, look no further than Kruger- we moved him to the 3 hole and our offense exploded- but he struggled there. Where a player hits in the order matters TO THEM. Thats the bottom line
So what you are saying is -- a little forced adversity turns them into head case ******s? It embarrassed you so bad you wanted to take your ball and go home?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Every single point in that post describes guys that I do not want at MSU. Not under this regime.
There was a time I was 4th every day behind a 3 time collegiate all-American. 2 spots behind an all-sec guy that holds a bunch of records. With all that protection and all those ducks on the pond, comfort actually made me less of a hitter. I thrived off adversity and perceived slights. Played better pissed off and doubted. THAT is what is/will be successful under this regime at MSU. If guys need all the coddling you are talking about -- they were dumb asses to sign with MSU in the first place. They've had half their lifetime now to know exactly what they were going to get from Cohen.
Everyone knows who Cohen is. Yet a bunch of you suddenly up and decided they want him to be Ron Polk. I just don't get it.
100% sure I stated that comfort could be a factor. I just don't think it is THE factor in individual success or failure. If it is then there are other factors that will affect success as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I could sit here and name off all these D1, professional, and big league guys I played with, against, for, and coached to try to further my point...but the fact still remains that there are multiple successful approaches to the game and the one who claims to know it all generally knows the least.
whether you want them at State or not- that's the reality. And no matter who you recruit-Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
you will have those guys on your team. As long as Cohen plays musical chairs line-ups- we will continue to be an up and down team. It's not a coincidence the best team he has had is the one he finally quit moving around constantly in 2013.
Definitely played with guys like that. Batting order never bothered me. Most of the time I was a 1 or 2. If I got bumped down, I usually took it as a challenge to get my ass out of a slump to earn that top of the order spot. I was a super utility guy, and could handle any position move - except moving in-game to SS. I was not a natural SS and that throw could play tricks with me if I didn't have a lot of warm up pre-game at the position. THAT would get me out of any comfort zone, and usually effect my hitting and fielding. I was thinking too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
http://s18.postimg.org/dp6ol9589/Capture.jpg
So looking at this, no one is moving from 2nd to 8th as some of you are describing. We are talking about 1-2 spots. The biggest is Lowe and that is because he has started hitting better. Do you think Kruger matters if he hits 2nd or 3rd? Collins cares if he's hitting 4th or 5th? Hump cares if 5th or 6th? LA cares if 8th or 9th? No. This is a stupid argument.