Reply With QuoteDude it's how he's managing games that's got everyone upset. Not as much the wins and losses.Originally Posted by bobcat91
what i dont understand with people that say ''he deserves one more year, but should change things.'' what in the hell coach do you know has EVER up and changed his entire strategy and coaching philosophy like that. He aint gonna change anything
if there is one you folks know then tell me but i cant think of any off the top of my head that changed everything in one offseason.
Dude it's how he's managing games that's got everyone upset. Not as much the wins and losses.
Howland changed from a stall offense to a run and gun and is a better coach for it. Cohen said the ball is going to change the game. He understands that. This team was built for a different brand of baseball. He has to adjust to the game or he'll be out of a job. It's that simple.
Everyone I knew hated the way it went down, no one wanted Polk acting like he did, but simultaneously wanted to respect his opinions too. But ultimately no one held any animosity towards the program or Cohen because it was undeniable who the more qualified candidate was. I know a few of the players that played under raffo were angry (Gendron is the one standing out to me right now), but that hardly seemed to be more than a negligible amount of the fanbase as a whole. Now if we'd have hired a Rick Ray type of hire over raffo, then you'd have created a divided fanbase, but we didn't make a Rick Ray type hire when hired Cohen.
This one is pretty simple. John Cohen. Cohen recruited and built a team in Kentucky around the HR ball. Soon as he was hired here to a larger field and with the new bats he went to Pitching, defense, and speed. He completely ditched recruiting for power and sacrificed it for speed. So I would say he has proven that he can switch his strategy.
Now I have no explanation why he did not going into this year like other coaches but it may be that we had swung so far the speed/ small ball direction, that he just didn't have the players to completely do it. Cohen easily gets one more year but needs to make some large scale changes. I think he will do that. We will have to wait and see.
Good post. I agree. Let's see what the Intense Bastard can do.
For me it's the overthinking and overmanaging. Whether it's 80%, 90%, or 99%, most of us want Cohen to work out. I think like Cadaver in that you can't put too much stock in what people say in a game thread of a frustrating game. It can get emotional!!!! I want Cohen to turn it around because I want MSU to be successful. Someone else said what I feel....I care what the name on the front of the jersey says, not the back. If Cohen brings success to that name, then his name can stay on the back of the jersey. If not, then I want a different name on the back of the coach's jersey so to speak. Certainly, he gets one if not two more years. When I say I'm done with him, what I really mean is I've had enough of cohen ball. There's pretty good post earlier in this thread by I seen it that involves multiple uses of the word sh*t. Pretty much nails it!! It's time to get back to the basis of straight up beating the other team. I'm sorry John, you're wrong about the playing "versus the game." There's a whole 'nother team full of eager young men that have something to say about that. They say they are going to knock it down your pitcher's throat or throw it right by your best slap hitter, no matter what your blinkin' matrix says John. They say, "please give me a free out" 'cause I know I'm just gonna K your next guy so your fly ball on the following batter is gonna end the inning, etc, etc, etc. You're playing another set of young men that apparently want it more than you. You're playing a game, but it's against another team, not some meticlorion filled force known as the "game." And if is, then let's recruit Anakin or some other Sith Lord filled with 'em. Heck, at least get us Han Solo, Chewbacca and a good blaster.... not Jawas who can run fast but little else from the batter's box.
As far as next year... It's hard to say well, he has to make postseason or host a regional or whatever. What I want to see is that his approach, the current or adjusted is going to be successful. And if it doesn't feel like it ultimately will, then goodbye. Still it's hard to say you would get rid of a guy that gets into the postseason in baseball. I agree with Hack on that. But, what I ultimately want to see is better power hitting recruits and development. Take the bat off the shoulder and swing it. Situational bunting will ALWAYS have a place in the strategy of a good baseball program, but the problem I have with "overbunting," for lack of a better word, is what lies at it's core:
PLAYING NOT TO LOSE
And that is exactly what it is because you are ASSUMING that the next batter coming up will NOT GET A HIT. That's a loser mentality. Bunt when it suits you and/or your strategy for this particular game and time in that game. But, don't follow some formula on when to do it. Okay, I really don't wanna reopen that discussion but I've never really weighed in on why I prefer to bunt rarely. Moving on.
Back to next year, even if the record isn't all that much better, we need to see a different product. We need to see Cohen get out of the way. Again, baseball is not an easy game, but it's also not hard. I wanna see better hitting and the top 6-8 guys in the lineup no matter what arm the pitcher throws with. 17 the matchup crap. I've had enough of it. It has a place and should be considered often, but it's not something you have to do. It's the same plate, lefty or righty. If you can't hit a ball coming over the plate, you don't need to be out there. I know that I'm biased because I was a natural hitter with a natural swing and didn't care or pay attention much to righty or left. It also didn't make much difference, but surely I'm not some freak. I know there are some data that say you wanna have this guy or that guy, but seriously, can you hit or not? If you can I want you in the lineup. Anyway, if we see the right kind of improvement next year, I want Cohen to stay, but if the same sheit show, different season, EVEN IF OUR RECORD IMPROVES... then let's get the inevitable over with.
I think of the 2008 football season, the last in the dark times that were the Croom era, a kick in the KY game plus a couple of FDs in the Auburn game and we easily would've gone bowling. Croom would still have been our coach in 2009... not because he was a good coach.... or was going in the right direction... or had a decent offense... Instead it would only have been because he went bowling and well, you know, you can't get rid of that guy. Where would be now, because we know that despite if he had gone bowling two years in a row, his philosophy was taking us nowhere. So, because of that way of thinking, I worry next year about us sneaking into a regional as a 3 seed, but still fall way short of potential because we're seeing the same 'ol Cohen ball. So, here's the punchline to all of this: What we need to see next year is a different product, regardless of how strikingly better or not the W/L record is.
Last edited by BulldogBear; 05-11-2015 at 04:22 PM.
The Liberation will not be televised--- when it arrives like lightning in the skies!
Trust me- we're better off keeping Cohen for at least one more year than we are cutting bait right now even if it means another losing season. We get rid of Cohen- we risk losing more of our recruits to the MLB draft in what is our best class in awhile. Our class after this one isn't as good as this one IMO.
And let's say we have to go through this again and have another losing season. So, then we fire Cohen and the new coach has an elite group of sophomores to work with- plus we have a new stadium that we can use as a selling point to get another great coach.
If Cohen turns it around, he turns it around.
Either way we win unless we fire Cohen and Rick Ray the next hire. Odds are that wouldn't happen.
It's the roller coaster of hope that this program keeps us on that makes it hell being a State fan. - CadaverDawg, 10/15/22
I'm wondering if Cohen even knows how to do this.
This is what worries me. Yeah, I get that teams have down years, but how can a team that was playing for a national title just 2 years ago be this.friggin'.bad? How? There should be at least a couple of things they are good at; something to give the fans a little hope and prove that the coaches are actually working on some aspects of the game. But this team is garbage from top to bottom. Makes no sense.
So they would take a larger risk in going pro with a different coach? No. They are signed not committed and we wouldn't see a mass "oh shit cohens not there I'm not going to try to improve my draft stock and make millions more now".. Especially because we obviously wouldn't hire some idiot and would likely upgrade their chances of a big payday down the road.
Another Toddism that sounds good but lacks reality.
There's a lot less of a correlation between "play in championship = great coach" in baseball than there is in football or basketball. A lot more randomness in small game samples. See Fresno State.
I know I am late to the party with this copy and reply, but you hit the nail on the head WMD great post and it explains my thoughts to a tee.
I think we also created our whole pitching staff on getting sink which also blew up in our faces.
They are signed- and if we hire a coach that they don't know- it absolutely increases the risk that they leave because they have no other option. These players were recruited by and CHOSE this current staff to play for. They WANT to play for out staff. It's not the high end guys that we would more than likely lose anyway- it's the second level guys that we MUST get to college to succeed whomever the coach is.
Basically, by you being a dumbass and your bias and hate for Cohen, you're advocating hurting us in the long run whomever the coach is. So, if we fire Cohen, you want to hurt the next guy? You are a prime example of what is wrong with our fanbase- failing to have a grasp on reality and not seeing the big picture and letting ignorance cloud your judgement that it holds us all back.
I don't think there can be any doubt about that. The only exceptions seem to be Hudson, Houston, Tatum, and Sexton. Coincidentally, they're arguably our 4 best pitchers.
It's the roller coaster of hope that this program keeps us on that makes it hell being a State fan. - CadaverDawg, 10/15/22
That sounds more like an overall talent issue to me than a philosophy issue. Normally trying to get ground balls is a good idea- ask the Braves in the 90's.
I would think getting sink and inducing ground balls would be a good thing no matter what ball you are using. Even with the new ball I'm not sure why our pitchers can't pitch to the lower part of the strike zone and be effective. They just have to adjust to not getting quite as much movement as in the past.
I agree with you there, in reference to it being an effect pitch any time and being able to locate. Seams doesn't effect location. But if the guy is not a power arm and his sink is dependent on spin and/or arm slot then the lack of late sink movement, because of the lower seams, will effect them in two ways. When they miss its going to be up in the zone and with little to no late movement then it's almost BP pitch. Secondly, even with them making a good location pitch the difference of just 2" less down movement changes a mishit to a base hit and also eliminates a lot of chase pitches from them. They have to throw for a strike and it stays a strike instead of the batter chasing the ball dropping out of the zone. So they have to either recreate what they do with even more spin, which may not happen if they are topping out to max spin rate or more speed with their same amount spin that they previously had. Again, which is incredibly hard to do. They may get an additional speed bump but very hard to keep their previous spin without a considerable amount of retooling. And they may never get the spins back up when throwing at an increased speed. Or they learn totally different pitches and change their philosphy. Or learn to be knuckleballer. It's easy to say just adjust location but what made them effective in the first place is gone from them and very few would be able to adjust in just one year.
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