2014 SEC Games Bunt Numbers!!!

[Smitty]

5 years of Todd including drag bunts in the sacrifice discussion. 5 years.

[Smitty]

You use SEC stats because that's what matters. You saying our offense is okay because we beat up on Alcorn Cincy and Alabama A&M... That's funny

[bulldogcountry1]

One thing that these stats do not account for is the actual percentage of success of getting the bunt down. There's really no way to compile that info without watching film because it's not in the box score, but you have to have a high rate of success getting a bunt down to even start the discussion "to bunt or not to bunt". As much as we practice it, it seems as though we do not execute at a high enough rate. The first couple years of Cohen's tenure, I would bet my house that there wasn't a lot of buy-in, and the rate of execution was low. I don't think anyone is purposefully not executing now, but there has to be some level of mental letdown in some of these situations.

I also don't think Cohen takes the individual player into account when calling a bunt. Obviously some are better than others at bunting, but Cohen essentially goes by the situation, regardless of who is at the plate or what they have done in the game. Cody Brown gets two doubles, then...bunt.

[maroonmania]

One thing that these stats do not account for is the actual percentage of success of getting the bunt down. There's really no way to compile that info without watching film because it's not in the box score, but you have to have a high rate of success getting a bunt down to even start the discussion "to bunt or not to bunt". As much as we practice it, it seems as though we do not execute at a high enough rate. The first couple years of Cohen's tenure, I would bet my house that there wasn't a lot of buy-in, and the rate of execution was low. I don't think anyone is purposefully not executing now, but there has to be some level of mental letdown in some of these situations.

I also don't think Cohen takes the individual player into account when calling a bunt. Obviously some are better than others at bunting, but Cohen essentially goes by the situation, regardless of who is at the plate or what they have done in the game. Cody Brown gets two doubles, then...bunt.

Yep, the statistics used on here have been using a 100% bunt success rate which we know doesn't happen in games. Guys foul off bunts and get in 0-2 holes, pop up bunts for outs or bunt too hard and the lead runner gets thrown out anyway. Just the other day folks on here were griping about Humphries popping out on a bunt but does anyone really expect him to be a good bunter??

[Todd4State]

You use SEC stats because that's what matters. You saying our offense is okay because we beat up on Alcorn Cincy and Alabama A&M... That's funny

Not as funny as you trying to use LAST year's data to attempt and fail to show that there is a problem with THIS year's offense- and just hope that no one notices.

And since you want SEC data- we bunted 10 times against Bama, five of which went for hits, reached on an error once, and scored 10 runs in innings we bunted while not scoring in only one inning that we bunted.

If you want, I have Arizona and San Diego as well.

And before you ask, we bunted once against Arkansas- Pine Bluff.

[Todd4State]

Yep, the statistics used on here have been using a 100% bunt success rate which we know doesn't happen in games. Guys foul off bunts and get in 0-2 holes, pop up bunts for outs or bunt too hard and the lead runner gets thrown out anyway. Just the other day folks on here were griping about Humphries popping out on a bunt but does anyone really expect him to be a good bunter??

The thing is just because you foul off a bunt- you still have an opportunity to get a hit assuming you didn't bunt strike two. I'm sure there are times that guys do indeed get a hit after fouling off a bunt. I'm sure there are more times when a guy doesn't get a bunt down and then goes on to record an out.

Personally, I think it's silly to count foul balls as failed bunt attempts because it's essentially the same as fouling off a ball in general. We don't count foul balls as a failed at bat or penalize a hitter in general for swinging at a ball and fouling it off, why should we do the same for a bunt?

[Smitty]

Your unwillingness to separate sacrifice bunts and bunting for a hit is absurd.

[Todd4State]

One thing that these stats do not account for is the actual percentage of success of getting the bunt down. There's really no way to compile that info without watching film because it's not in the box score, but you have to have a high rate of success getting a bunt down to even start the discussion "to bunt or not to bunt". As much as we practice it, it seems as though we do not execute at a high enough rate. The first couple years of Cohen's tenure, I would bet my house that there wasn't a lot of buy-in, and the rate of execution was low. I don't think anyone is purposefully not executing now, but there has to be some level of mental letdown in some of these situations.

I also don't think Cohen takes the individual player into account when calling a bunt. Obviously some are better than others at bunting, but Cohen essentially goes by the situation, regardless of who is at the plate or what they have done in the game. Cody Brown gets two doubles, then...bunt.

I think it seems that way because as fans we magnify everything about our team and tend to remember the mistakes and not pay as much attention when we execute because as fans we "expect" to execute.

I do agree about there being a mental letdown when any player doesn't execute.

You might be right about Cohen simply going by situation rather than the individual. Rea has bunted once- and he got a hit. Humphreys has bunted three times and was successful on one I believe. I'm a huge advocate of dropping Cody Brown down and moving Robson up to the two spot.

We have players now that are a lot better at bunting than we've ever had as well- Robson is the best since Cohen has arrived. Vickerson is very good at it. Gridley and Spruill are pretty good at it. Brown is probably the fifth best behind that group IMO.

[Todd4State]

Your unwillingness to separate sacrifice bunts and bunting for a hit is absurd.

Not nearly as absurd as your two strike hitting approach. Among other things...

The fact of the matter is the results show that we're not giving away nearly as many runs as you assert. Which is the real reason why you went for last year's stats with last year's team which actually DID have a problem offensively. Looking at the data of the 14 innings we didn't score, there were at least three where we actually bunted and got a hit and didn't score- which makes your claims even more wrong.

[Smitty]

I'm working on 2013 right now, but just looking at the difference in year-to-year is eye-opening too. Our best hitters weren't doing the bunting in 2013. They were in 2014.

2013
Frazier - 5
Renfroe - 0
Detz - 1
Pirtle - 2
Rea - 4

2014
Pirtle - 8
Bradford - 7
Collins - 7
Heck - 7
Henderson - 8

2013's best five hitters sac bunted 12 times
2014's best five hitters sac bunted 37 times

[Really Clark?]

I'm working on 2013 right now, but just looking at the difference in year-to-year is eye-opening too. Our best hitters weren't doing the bunting in 2013. They were in 2014.

2013
Frazier - 5
Renfroe - 0
Detz - 1
Pirtle - 2
Rea - 4

2014
Pirtle - 8
Bradford - 7
Collins - 7
Heck - 7
Henderson - 8

2013's best five hitters sac bunted 12 times
2014's best five hitters sac bunted 37 times

Nothing for nothing but Henderson wasn't #5 it was Armstrong and I think he only had 1 sac??? Probably need to double check me on that. 2013 5 are a bit of a different type of hitter and they had a ton more hits and even with all the extra at bats hit and less double plays percentage wise than the 2014 top 5. Bit of an apples to orange comparison.

[Smitty]

Nothing for nothing but Henderson wasn't #5 it was Armstrong and I think he only had 1 sac??? Probably need to double check me on that

Armstrong had 2 percentage points on batting average, but Henderson bested him by 26 points in SLG and 44 points on OBP.

[Really Clark?]

Armstrong had 2 percentage points on batting average, but Henderson bested him by 26 points in SLG and 44 points on OBP.

Ok but if you are using the slash lines for compassion then you have to consider Rea and Vickerson and I think you have to consider number of ab as well. 2013 5 had 196+ per hitter. Big difference with Henderson only having 113 compared to Armstrong Rea or Vickerson. The flip side of that is the actual bunt number in percentages increases a good bit for 2014 compared to 2013. But I still think you have to consider the players. Look at Pirtle Rea and Deitz numbers from 2013 to 2014. Now Pirtle went up but Rea went down eventhough he was hitting worse and had almost the same number of ab. Same kind of deal with Deitz. About the same number of ab and only one more sac bunt and with him really tanking in hitting. Notice that that is two of the previous year top 5 hitters not a part of the numbers in 2014 and they were bout the same in 2014 in sac bunts.

[engie]

Hilarious. But wait, if you question Cohen or show how he is holding us back, you are an idiot and should be bashed and shamed back into submission!!!!!!! Todd, Engie, ISeenIT, et.al where are you on this one? Maybe they are thinking up and composing all their apologies to Smitty, myself and others on here who've seen this from the beginning.

You are a ****ing idiot. I've held a consistently anti-sacrifice bunting stance since well before Will James was a persona on message boards. But when you can't argue someone's actual thoughts -- just make some up and attribute them to that person. It's a joke -- just not a very funny one. Like you, actually.

[engie]

I gotta admit, you and Engie have definitely come around as it relates to bunting and offense. Just wish Cohen, the only guy that matters, would come around on it. With the way Cohen and Butch rave about Paul Young, I'm hoping he can be part of the solution to our bullpen issues. Give him a shot closing and see what happens. If he can handle it, finding middle relief guys is exponentially easier.

Come around? I've never changed my stance one inch on bunting. Smitty can attest that I've had the same consistent thought process about it since his very first threads and inclination to question it. Back when it was taboo and he was getting slaughtered for it -- I was already agreeing in principle with him. I've argued with him about plenty of different stuff -- and even argued with his manner of presentation on this at times -- but I have never once argued with the premise that we are bunting at bad times far too often and in bad situations... Maybe a few specific instances where I was OK with a bunt that he wasn't -- but overall -- I've held a consistent stance on it...

[engie]

Hilarious! I've only restated this year what I've been saying the last 3-4 years. The only difference in this year vs the last few, is you and others no longer have a leg to stand on, in your attempts to call me an idiot for what I am stating about our team that is causing the poor hitting and bunting. Why did everyone go to extreme extents the past few years to discredit my posts and call me an idiot for what I was bringing to the table about hitting? I was showing how Cohen was actually holding back the offense and our players mechanics were not that great. And this was the reason for the offensive woes. All the Cohen defenders came out of the woodwork, calling me an idiot and tried to disprove me by asking "are you a hitting coach" and such. Now that people are finally seeing the light, the Cohen defenders cannot defend the trends that cannot be refuted.

Baseball is a complicated game physically and mentally. Those people who've never been exposed to the intricacies of the game, do not really know about them. I try to bring in depth posts to explain the things that our players are doing and why we may not be doing something successfully. Hence my posts on our mechanics and why we have very little power. Or our bunting woes and the mechanical flaws we display that is causing that. Or the baserunning woes. Base running is almost as complicated as hitting or defense and had a ton of factors that should be analyzed each play by the runner. I say all of this because I'm tired of seeing us not get the full potential of our players by either not teaching correct physical mechanics and mental aspects or hiring someone that will.

Do I really need to go back and compile archived posts to refresh everyone?

You are still an idiot -- and literally thinking you are a better hitting coach that knows more about it than John Cohen and consistently holding to that belief proves it.