If we're so hopelessly poor that it doesn't matter who our coach is...

[Quaoarsking]

AGAIN- eliminate Y1 on Lebby. Our Admin has. He is being judged on 2025 and 2026

I'm never going to forget or forgive the feeling of watching Toledo annihilate us. That never should have happened. We can't tell ourselves it was just a fluke.

[Todd4State]

AGAIN- eliminate Y1 on Lebby. Our Admin has. He is being judged on 2025 and 2026

We're talking about MSU fans who remember baseball losses to Mississippi College in 1985 here.

[BlackSailsDawg]

It's not weird at all, because it shows the weakness of the "he improved!" argument. The Toledo game was where a lot of our fans realized that Lebby was never going to be a good coach for us, because despite our troubles, we really shouldn't have lost to a mid-level MAC team at all, or if we did, it should have at least been a fluky game rather than a complete embarrassment.

I'd feel more comfortable with 5-7 in 2025 if he hadn't needed such a big "improvement" (but still worst team in the SEC by FPI, 66th to 49th or maybe a little worse after they update it through the bowls) over 2024, but I don't know what the "he improved" copers would be saying instead.

The numbers are out there to see if there was improvement. All you gotta do is go the the NCAA.org system and look it up.

[Todd4State]

I'm never going to forget or forgive the feeling of watching Toledo annihilate us. That never should have happened.

Shouldn't have lost to South Alabama either in 2016. Shouldn't have lost to Maine. Shouldn't have lost to Troy and ULM under Jackie or La Tech. Thing is Saban lost to ULM in year one too. Ole Miss lost to Jacksonville State a year after they went to the Cotton Bowl in 2010. Texas A&M lost to App State and Kevin Barbay. Shit happens.

At this same point in their careers Dan Mullen had two top 25 wins. Lebby has one. And Lebby if beats a top 25 team next year he will equal Dan in top 25 wins after three seasons after MSU. He's already halfway there.

[Todd4State]

The numbers are out there to see if there was improvement. All you gotta do is go the the NCAA.org system and look it up.

Oh hell no that's not happening from him. He's hanging his hat on "But.....but....Toledo!"

Hell- I could go to a preschool and every kid there would tell me that 5 is better than 2.

[Quaoarsking]

Shouldn't have lost to South Alabama either in 2016. Shouldn't have lost to Maine. Shouldn't have lost to Troy and ULM under Jackie or La Tech. Thing is Saban lost to ULM in year one too. Ole Miss lost to Jacksonville State a year after they went to the Cotton Bowl in 2010. Texas A&M lost to App State and Kevin Barbay. Shit happens.

Every single example you listed was a close fluky game. Toledo humiliated is. It wasn't a "Shit happens" game like the rest.

At this same point in their careers Dan Mullen had two top 25 wins. Lebby has one. And Lebby if beats a top 25 team next year he will equal Dan in top 25 wins after three seasons after MSU. He's already halfway there.

Arizona State is unlikely to receive a single vote in the final polls. I have been consistent for years that "ranking at the time" means nothing and only the final poll matters.

[confucius say]

It's not weird at all, because it shows the weakness of the "he improved!" argument. The Toledo game was where a lot of our fans realized that Lebby was never going to be a good coach for us, because despite our troubles, we really shouldn't have lost to a mid-level MAC team at all, or if we did, it should have at least been a fluky game rather than a complete embarrassment.

I'd feel more comfortable with 5-7 in 2025 if he hadn't needed such a big "improvement" (but still worst team in the SEC by FPI, 66th to 49th or maybe a little worse after they update it through the bowls) over 2024, but I don't know what the "he improved" copers would be saying instead.

It's weird because Arkansas beat us by 33 points. In no universe were we beating them in 2024. They could have hung 70 on us had they wanted to. It's a nonsensical hypothetical.

It's undeniable that we improved from 2024 to 2025. That is universally agreed to by all the pundits.
Doesn't mean 2025 was a success or even acceptable. But we were improved objectively.

[Quaoarsking]

The numbers are out there to see if there was improvement. All you gotta do is go the the NCAA.org system and look it up.

I don't deny that we're "better" and have posted facts myself many times that support this notion. What I've said is that I don't put much value in comparing against a year that was really awful where Lebby was the coach, and apparently "doesn't count" anyway. Of course we were better in 2025 than 2024 - how could we not have been? So what?

[Quaoarsking]

It's weird because Arkansas beat us by 33 points. In no universe were we beating them in 2024. They could have hung 70 on us had they wanted to. It's a nonsensical hypothetical.

I just picked a random game to give us another hypothetical win. Change it to Florida or Ole Miss if you want. If Lebby was 4-8 (1-7) in 2024, I'd feel a lot better about him now, even though the "he improved us by 3 games over his own record in 2024" argument wouldn't be there anymore.

[confucius say]

I just picked a random game to give us another hypothetical win. Change it to Florida or Ole Miss if you want. If Lebby was 4-8 (1-7) in 2024, I'd feel a lot better about him now, even though the "he improved us by 3 games over his own record in 2024" argument wouldn't be there anymore.

Well yea. Because if lebby went 4-8 with the 2024 roster he should have been coach of the year. Thats how bad we were in 2024. That he went from that to 5-7 in year 2 was improvement.

[Todd4State]

Every single example you listed was a close fluky game. Toledo humiliated is. It wasn't a "Shit happens" game like the rest.


Arizona State is unlikely to receive a single vote in the final polls. I have been consistent for years that "ranking at the time" means nothing and only the final poll matters.

Our game absolutely was shit happens. And none of those losses should have happened to any of those teams. Considering that Lebby hasn't even come close to losing another G5 game I think I can make a pretty good case that was a fluke as well.

You can use the final poll if you want to- it doesn't change anything in this case.

[Todd4State]

I just picked a random game to give us another hypothetical win. Change it to Florida or Ole Miss if you want. If Lebby was 4-8 (1-7) in 2024, I'd feel a lot better about him now, even though the "he improved us by 3 games over his own record in 2024" argument wouldn't be there anymore.

Even in your hypotheticals we still improved this year. That should tell you something.

[BlackSailsDawg]

I don't deny that we're "better" and have posted facts myself many times that support this notion. What I've said is that I don't put much value in comparing against a year that was really awful where Lebby was the coach, and apparently "doesn't count" anyway. Of course we were better in 2025 than 2024 - how could we not have been? So what?

Our offense was better than 2 SEC teams that reached the playoffs. Is that better for you? In fact our scoring offense is better than a playoff team... btw... from the SEC too. In fact, our scoring offense was better than 8 other SEC teams this year. 2 of those 8 made the playoffs.


Last year only 3 SEC teams were ranked below us in total offense. We were only better than 2 other SEC teams in scoring offense last year.

[Quaoarsking]

Our offense was better than 2 SEC teams that reached the playoffs. Is that better for you? In fact our scoring offense is better than a playoff team... btw... from the SEC too. In fact, our scoring offense was better than 8 other SEC teams this year. 2 of those 8 made the playoffs.


Last year only 3 SEC teams were ranked below us in total offense. We were only better than 2 other SEC teams in scoring offense last year.

I never questioned Lebby's aptitude at running at an offense. I question his aptitude at running an SEC football program.

[BlackSailsDawg]

I never questioned Lebby's aptitude at running at an offense. I question his aptitude at running an SEC football program.

Running a program means making changes when needed. He's shown every year to make needed changes. Cody Kennedy .. gone after 1 year. etc. Now he has gone out and got a known DC. And here's something you need to consider. Those 2 SEC teams that made to playoffs with lesser offenses did so because of defense.

OU is one of those teams. They only won as much because their defense is ranked 7th.

Bama is the other. That makes me smile that our offense is ranked higher and our scoring offense is too. But, Like OU.... Bama had a top defense.... ranked 13th.

Side Note... Ole Miss had the 41st ranked defense. Arnett should have us top 50 in year 1. Any improvement on offense and we are going to hurt some dreams next year.

[Todd4State]

Running a program means making changes when needed. He's shown every year to make needed changes. Cody Kennedy .. gone after 1 year. etc. Now he has gone out and got a known DC. And here's something you need to consider. Those 2 SEC teams that made to playoffs with lesser offenses did so because of defense.

OU is one of those teams. They only won as much because their defense is ranked 7th.

Bama is the other. That makes me smile that our offense is ranked higher and our scoring offense is too. But, Like OU.... Bama had a top defense.... ranked 13th.

Side Note... Ole Miss had the 41st ranked defense. Arnett should have us top 50 in year 1. Any improvement on offense and we are going to hurt some dreams next year.

Ironically enough Arnett/Brock's last year in 2023 that MSU wants rightfully redacted from our memories we finished guess what in total defense? 41st! **** you Kevin Barbay.

The other years under Arnett as DC- 35th, 31, and 51. If we can replicate ANY of those seasons we should improve a lot. When Arnett took over last we were 73rd in 2019 for context. We were 107th this year. So, 41 seems like it may be a big jump for us realistically. 60 seems very realistic if not somewhat pessimistic though.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

We beat Tennessee if our offensive line doesn't whiff and Shapen gets sacked. We tried to run the clock out against Texas and couldn't because of our offensive line. And we executed poorly on punt coverage.

Those issues are corrected with better talent.

He went for it on 4th down on our own 36 when we were completely in control of the game and their offense could not do anything. If we just punt the ball, they dont have enough time to come back. I notice how you conveniently left the Florida game out too.

[Hot Rock]

Every single example you listed was a close fluky game. Toledo humiliated is. It wasn't a "Shit happens" game like the rest.


Arizona State is unlikely to receive a single vote in the final polls. I have been consistent for years that "ranking at the time" means nothing and only the final poll matters.

Actually teams are not the same from one game to the next. ASU had a ton of injuries that made them a shell of themselves. You cannot say rankings don't matter until the end of the season for a game that happened in the early part of the year when they were full strength.

Arizona State's 2025 season was significantly impacted by injuries, with key players like QB Sam Leavitt, WR Jordyn Tyson, DB Xavion Alford, OL Ben Coleman, and LB Zyrus Fiaseu missing significant time or the entire season, creating major holes in the offense, defense, and offensive line.

[Quaoarsking]

Actually teams are not the same from one game to the next. ASU had a ton of injuries that made them a shell of themselves. You cannot say rankings don't matter until the end of the season for a game that happened in the early part of the year when they were full strength.

I think that injuries are a fair point to raise with the "end of season rankings only" argument, but I still don't think ranking at the time is a good way to evaluate seasons.

For example, should 2020 Arkansas get credit for beating a ranked team (us), but nobody else who beat us get that credit? Just because they had a fluke in the order of their schedule?

In our favor, Auburn happened not to be ranked on the day we beat them in 2007, but they finished #15, and I count that as a ranked win for us.

[BB30]

Several WR improved.
KT improved.
Kelly jones improved.
Safeties improved.
OL did not.
DL did not.
Lockhart improved.

And what did all of the players that improved have in common? They were all highly valued sec caliber players....

We didn't have the talent nor the depth to consistently win and consistently improve.

Fluff wasn't the same after he missed a couple games. Our OL and DL were gassed by the end of the season. We lost arguably our only sec talent on the DL by week 4.

Our OL was absolutely atrocious most of the season.

Y'all may be right on lebby, but with the talent level we had up front he had to be perfect he didn't have any cushion for making boneheaded coaching decisions whereas kiffin and others got bailed out multiple times this year by the talent on their roster.

All coaches make dumb decisions heck, Kirby smart pissed the second half of the sugar bowl away and he's one of the best in the business.

Lebby may not be the guy. I can assure you the next guy won't be the guy either if we don't get better at buying in and fundraising the nil to compete.

Wake forest outspent us in NIL last year and they beat us shocker. We are dead last in NIL in the sec even behind Kentucky and y'all are surprised we have won one sec game in two years. I don't understand how some of y'all can't see there is a direct correlation in spending and winning.