MSU Baseball Thoughts

[Todd4State]

First a little history lesson.

Before Polk we were a good regional Southern baseball program. Good fans/crowds and some SEC Championships up until 1976 and we hired a guy named Ron Polk. When we hired Polk I wasn't born but I don't think anyone ever thought MSU would ever win a NC. But it was fun to watch MSU baseball.

Then 1979 we dominated the SEC and made it to Omaha for the second time ever. And we won our first ever CWS game over Cal State Fullerton who ended up winning the NC. At that time, I would have to believe that was probably thought to be the pinnacle for MSU baseball. Going to Omaha. Not winning it all. Just going.

Then 1985 happened. And I think that team really changed everything for not only MSU but the SEC as well. And even though we finished third at Omaha I think this was the first time our fans really believed that we might win it all one day. That plus following up with a lot of success through 1990 as well reinforced that.

Polk retires after 1997 and we had Pat McMahon who did well but decided to leave for Florida and we brought Polk back which was a mistake. But I think we were trying to live on the hope that he might win a NC one day. He couldn't so we brought in Cohen which really divided the fan base badly.

Nonetheless Cohen was hellbent on winning a NC and despite the odds he built MSU back and got us to the Finals in 2013 for the first time- something we had never done before. And that renewed and reset expectations for the program. And built on that success he built a team that would set the tone for 2016-2021 which would become the most successful era of MSU baseball to date. Of course, as always with Cohen it wasn't without drama and we had three coaching changes from Cohen to Cann to interim Henderson who I am not counting and then finally Lemonis who coached the team to it's first elusive NC.

In between 1976 and 2021 MSU has not only won a NC, we have hosted and won SR as a National Seed, hosted regionals, won SEC Tournaments (I know it's a money grab but it still counts), won the SEC, won the Governor's Cup multiple times and Hancock Whitney Classic and been invited to every prestigious preseason tournament in college baseball. And along the way there have been too many iconic moments to count.

All of that is to say TLDR- the ONLY thing MSU hasn't done is become a true baseball dynasty. Which I would define as multiple NC's within a decade. I had hope that Lemonis was the guy to do that. It's obvious that he wasn't. So my point to saying all of that besides taking you through memory lane is this. When MSU hires a baseball coach we HAVE TO think about hiring someone that can take us the next step of the way like we did with Polk I and Cohen. And that is how MSU needs to approach this baseball search. Get it right. We're not a training ground for assistants. Our baseball program is a monster. And I don't mean that in a bad way. Monsters can be loveable. Like Cookie Monster. But when monsters are angry- it can get brutally ugly.

In hindsight- I don't think Cohen got it right with Lemonis. And yes, I know he won a NC. And is he a terrible coach- well, honestly I don't think he was the best. But I think in the right program and in the right fit I think he could be very good. I don't think that fit for him was Mississippi State. And I'm not here to trash him. That's not what I am going for here. What I am saying is MSU needs a coach that is going to be aggressive about trying to win the next NC and trying to become a dynasty. That means putting winning over patience with a guy that is struggling badly. That means dropping a guy down in the lineup or sitting them if they are struggling. That means taking guys out and playing to win the game now and not worrying about saving bullpen. It means working relentlessly on defense and paying attention to every detail and not letting anything slide because you know LSU is working just as hard at it. It means making a change at third base coach if your friend is causing multiple guys to get thrown out at home. And Chris had strengths too- he was a good recruiter. You can complain about "misevaluations", but the reality is the MLB draft has vindicated those that talked up how talented the players are and those players performance in the minors has also vindicated that. Chris and his staff couldn't tap into that talent much of the time. He and all of his coaches are nice people. They really are and I think for the most part he was very friendly with our fans- which has to be tough at times.

I don't know that our fans truly understand what we have at MSU in baseball and how REALLY special it is. I've seen our fans say that we are the same program as Tennessee and Georgia. We are not. The difference is our fan base. Tomorrow when we play Memphis we will draw as many fans as UT and UGA on a weekend SEC series. On a weekend we will draw more fans than those two schools COMBINED playing Kentucky in a dead end year as those two teams if they were playing LSU and Texas at home. It's not just the number of fans. It's how much they care. StarkvegasSteve had a great post about this how after 2021 Lemonis was overwhelmed with fans wanting autographs, pictures, and etc. I think the monster of MSU baseball consumed Lemonis. I think the monster also consumed Cann as well by the way. The only way to tame the monster is to be so focused on winning that the other things don't matter. And you have to have a coach that can handle that. Polk did. And Cohen did. Pat McMahon mostly did or at least he got away before it consumed him. I don't think they created the monster but they definitely grew it. But we need a coach that can handle that and that's why I feel that we need to hire someone with experience. Go find someone that can build a dynasty. And the best way to do that is to hire someone where we know who we are getting.

As far as the timing of all of this. Personally I was a little surprised that it was done in season. I think we should have waited until the end of the year because I really think even getting hot wasn't going to change much as far as what was ultimately going to happen. Firing him later also isn't going to change the time of the hire either- It's probably going to be after the SR while the CWS is going on if I had to guess unless we roll the dice on a mid major or a coach that gets eliminated early. I guess the powers that be knew that they were going to fire Lemonis no matter what and were maybe afraid that the team would get hot maybe go on a run and we're stuck with a coach who isn't a fit for another year or two? And I think Parker became the interim on the off chance that we hire a coach that wants to keep him. That said, I fully expect a complete house cleaning. All in all I think the AD handled Lemonis well overall. No way we were going to fire him after 2022 one year removed from a NC. If we fired him after 2023 I think it would have been a disaster and we would be stuck with a bad coach in year two that we would have to give another year for stability that we would ultimately have to fire. By waiting we essentially saved ourselves a year or two of rebuilding in the long run. And if you think the backlash from the media today was bad- try firing a guy two years removed from a NC. That would have extended to the coaching community too. We allowed Lemonis to replace Foxhall and things looked better even if we did underachieve. And then you have this year where we appear to be on a pace for 30-ish wins as I type this. So compared to what Cohen took over we're not in bad shape at all really. And with the portal we can recover very quickly as well. We should all be thankful as far as how well MSU has handled this situation overall because it has put us in the best position to hire the BEST coach while minimizing rebuilding.

I am looking forward to the future of MSU baseball and looking forward to hopefully hiring the coach that can build that baseball dynasty that we all want and IMO deserve.

[Santiago]

Great points.
On firing Lemonis early, my only addition is that we at least eliminated any arguments for him if our team somehow went on a 7-8 game run here at the end of the season. This now eliminates the debate at the end, and less noise. Also, this will most likely give a huge boost to fan support for the final home weekends.

[Ranchdawg]

My wish for a new coach is demand excellence in every facet of the game. And a coach that wants to win above everything else. Will do whatever it takes to win and win every game. Not settling just to win two games of a three game series. No more “that’s baseball” bull crud. Destroy your opponents because that is what they are trying to do to us. A coach that will work harder than any coach in the SEC. A coach that wants to be here. A coach that will engage the media. A coach that will cultivate, rally and fire up the fan base. I know winning cures a lot of that but the things I just listed go a long way when you have a bad season. And if a bad season does occur explain to the fan base via every media type/outlet how it will be fixed then do it. Also be well prepared for opening of a season. No more trying to figure out who is going to pitch or play positions in the field half way through aSEC season.

[DownwardDawg]

My wish for a new coach is demand excellence in every facet of the game. And a coach that wants to win above everything else. Will do whatever it takes to win and win every game. Not settling just to win two games of a three game series. No more “that’s baseball” bull crud. Destroy your opponents because that is what they are trying to do to us. A coach that will work harder than any coach in the SEC. A coach that wants to be here. A coach that will engage the media. A coach that will cultivate, rally and fire up the fan base. I know winning cures a lot of that but the things I just listed go a long way when you have a bad season. And if a bad season does occur explain to the fan base via every media type/outlet how it will be fixed then do it. Also be well prepared for opening of a season. No more trying to figure out who is going to pitch or play positions in the field half way through aSEC season.

Man you nailed it!!!! Great post.

[DownwardDawg]

First a little history lesson.

Before Polk we were a good regional Southern baseball program. Good fans/crowds and some SEC Championships up until 1976 and we hired a guy named Ron Polk. When we hired Polk I wasn't born but I don't think anyone ever thought MSU would ever win a NC. But it was fun to watch MSU baseball.

Then 1979 we dominated the SEC and made it to Omaha for the second time ever. And we won our first ever CWS game over Cal State Fullerton who ended up winning the NC. At that time, I would have to believe that was probably thought to be the pinnacle for MSU baseball. Going to Omaha. Not winning it all. Just going.

Then 1985 happened. And I think that team really changed everything for not only MSU but the SEC as well. And even though we finished third at Omaha I think this was the first time our fans really believed that we might win it all one day. That plus following up with a lot of success through 1990 as well reinforced that.

Polk retires after 1997 and we had Pat McMahon who did well but decided to leave for Florida and we brought Polk back which was a mistake. But I think we were trying to live on the hope that he might win a NC one day. He couldn't so we brought in Cohen which really divided the fan base badly.

Nonetheless Cohen was hellbent on winning a NC and despite the odds he built MSU back and got us to the Finals in 2013 for the first time- something we had never done before. And that renewed and reset expectations for the program. And built on that success he built a team that would set the tone for 2016-2021 which would become the most successful era of MSU baseball to date. Of course, as always with Cohen it wasn't without drama and we had three coaching changes from Cohen to Cann to interim Henderson who I am not counting and then finally Lemonis who coached the team to it's first elusive NC.

In between 1976 and 2021 MSU has not only won a NC, we have hosted and won SR as a National Seed, hosted regionals, won SEC Tournaments (I know it's a money grab but it still counts), won the SEC, won the Governor's Cup multiple times and Hancock Whitney Classic and been invited to every prestigious preseason tournament in college baseball. And along the way there have been too many iconic moments to count.

All of that is to say TLDR- the ONLY thing MSU hasn't done is become a true baseball dynasty. Which I would define as multiple NC's within a decade. I had hope that Lemonis was the guy to do that. It's obvious that he wasn't. So my point to saying all of that besides taking you through memory lane is this. When MSU hires a baseball coach we HAVE TO think about hiring someone that can take us the next step of the way like we did with Polk I and Cohen. And that is how MSU needs to approach this baseball search. Get it right. We're not a training ground for assistants. Our baseball program is a monster. And I don't mean that in a bad way. Monsters can be loveable. Like Cookie Monster. But when monsters are angry- it can get brutally ugly.

In hindsight- I don't think Cohen got it right with Lemonis. And yes, I know he won a NC. And is he a terrible coach- well, honestly I don't think he was the best. But I think in the right program and in the right fit I think he could be very good. I don't think that fit for him was Mississippi State. And I'm not here to trash him. That's not what I am going for here. What I am saying is MSU needs a coach that is going to be aggressive about trying to win the next NC and trying to become a dynasty. That means putting winning over patience with a guy that is struggling badly. That means dropping a guy down in the lineup or sitting them if they are struggling. That means taking guys out and playing to win the game now and not worrying about saving bullpen. It means working relentlessly on defense and paying attention to every detail and not letting anything slide because you know LSU is working just as hard at it. It means making a change at third base coach if your friend is causing multiple guys to get thrown out at home. And Chris had strengths too- he was a good recruiter. You can complain about "misevaluations", but the reality is the MLB draft has vindicated those that talked up how talented the players are and those players performance in the minors has also vindicated that. Chris and his staff couldn't tap into that talent much of the time. He and all of his coaches are nice people. They really are and I think for the most part he was very friendly with our fans- which has to be tough at times.

I don't know that our fans truly understand what we have at MSU in baseball and how REALLY special it is. I've seen our fans say that we are the same program as Tennessee and Georgia. We are not. The difference is our fan base. Tomorrow when we play Memphis we will draw as many fans as UT and UGA on a weekend SEC series. On a weekend we will draw more fans than those two schools COMBINED playing Kentucky in a dead end year as those two teams if they were playing LSU and Texas at home. It's not just the number of fans. It's how much they care. StarkvegasSteve had a great post about this how after 2021 Lemonis was overwhelmed with fans wanting autographs, pictures, and etc. I think the monster of MSU baseball consumed Lemonis. I think the monster also consumed Cann as well by the way. The only way to tame the monster is to be so focused on winning that the other things don't matter. And you have to have a coach that can handle that. Polk did. And Cohen did. Pat McMahon mostly did or at least he got away before it consumed him. I don't think they created the monster but they definitely grew it. But we need a coach that can handle that and that's why I feel that we need to hire someone with experience. Go find someone that can build a dynasty. And the best way to do that is to hire someone where we know who we are getting.

As far as the timing of all of this. Personally I was a little surprised that it was done in season. I think we should have waited until the end of the year because I really think even getting hot wasn't going to change much as far as what was ultimately going to happen. Firing him later also isn't going to change the time of the hire either- It's probably going to be after the SR while the CWS is going on if I had to guess unless we roll the dice on a mid major or a coach that gets eliminated early. I guess the powers that be knew that they were going to fire Lemonis no matter what and were maybe afraid that the team would get hot maybe go on a run and we're stuck with a coach who isn't a fit for another year or two? And I think Parker became the interim on the off chance that we hire a coach that wants to keep him. That said, I fully expect a complete house cleaning. All in all I think the AD handled Lemonis well overall. No way we were going to fire him after 2022 one year removed from a NC. If we fired him after 2023 I think it would have been a disaster and we would be stuck with a bad coach in year two that we would have to give another year for stability that we would ultimately have to fire. By waiting we essentially saved ourselves a year or two of rebuilding in the long run. And if you think the backlash from the media today was bad- try firing a guy two years removed from a NC. That would have extended to the coaching community too. We allowed Lemonis to replace Foxhall and things looked better even if we did underachieve. And then you have this year where we appear to be on a pace for 30-ish wins as I type this. So compared to what Cohen took over we're not in bad shape at all really. And with the portal we can recover very quickly as well. We should all be thankful as far as how well MSU has handled this situation overall because it has put us in the best position to hire the BEST coach while minimizing rebuilding.

I am looking forward to the future of MSU baseball and looking forward to hopefully hiring the coach that can build that baseball dynasty that we all want and IMO deserve.

Great points and great write up Todd.

[maroonmania]

Great points.
On firing Lemonis early, my only addition is that we at least eliminated any arguments for him if our team somehow went on a 7-8 game run here at the end of the season. This now eliminates the debate at the end, and less noise. Also, this will most likely give a huge boost to fan support for the final home weekends.

I think the other issue is the next 2 series are at home and it's about the atmosphere. Getting Lemonis out of the way takes a bit of a dark cloud off the players and the fans. Now the deed has been done and the players can just play without all the outside chatter about their coach being an issue. Also, some of the negativity from the fans that was even being heard during the game telecast should go away and that kind of stuff coming out of the stands was not putting a good light on our program especially when the commentators were even talking about it being uncalled for. I still don't expect this team to do anything but making the change gives our team it's best chance. All that being said I would still have waited until the end of the regular season myself but I can see the motivation to go ahead and make the move now.

[Coach34]

There will be no types of dynasties except the ones with the biggest pocketbook.

Texas decided to make a big hire and spend the money
Tenn saw their guy build their program and are pouring top money into theirs
LSU has spent big money since the 90's got their program rolling

Your top SEC teams- therefore top programs in the country- will be those that spend the most money

[HoopsDawg]

I think the other issue is the next 2 series are at home and it's about the atmosphere. Getting Lemonis out of the way takes a bit of a dark cloud off the players and the fans. Now the deed has been done and the players can just play without all the outside chatter about their coach being an issue. Also, some of the negativity from the fans that was even being heard during the game telecast should go away and that kind of stuff coming out of the stands was not putting a good light on our program especially when the commentators were even talking about it being uncalled for. I still don't expect this team to do anything but making the change gives our team its. best chance. All that being said I would still have waited until the end of the regular season myself but I can see the motivation to go ahead and make the move now.

Yep. Good post.

[Ranchdawg]

There will be no types of dynasties except the ones with the biggest pocketbook.

Texas decided to make a big hire and spend the money
Tenn saw their guy build their program and are pouring top money into theirs
LSU has spent big money since the 90's got their porgram rolling

Your top SEC teams- therefore top programs in the country- will be those that spend the most money

Oh but baseball is a club sport! And very little NIL monies should be directed towards baseball. Try telling that to Tennessee, Texas, LSU, Arkansas, Georgia and Texas A&M. And several other programs in different conferences. Sure there are some programs where the fan base doesn’t know where the baseball stadium is located. But at MSU baseball is a very big deal! We didn’t build our program up just to be mediocre or worse.

[State82]

Oh but baseball is a club sport! And very little NIL monies should be directed towards baseball. Try telling that to Tennessee, Texas, LSU, Arkansas, Georgia and Texas A&M. And several other programs in different conferences. Sure there are some programs where the fan base doesn’t know where the baseball stadium is located. But at MSU baseball is a very big deal! We didn’t build our program up just to be mediocre or worse.

And as far as the "non-revenue" issue, try telling all the businesses in Starkville that baseball season is a "non-revenue" season of the year for them.

[EdwardDrayton]

It is possible to win without spending the most money.

[Pancho]

just gotta get the right kinda players is all

[DownwardDawg]

There will be no types of dynasties except the ones with the biggest pocketbook.

Texas decided to make a big hire and spend the money
Tenn saw their guy build their program and are pouring top money into theirs
LSU has spent big money since the 90's got their program rolling

Your top SEC teams- therefore top programs in the country- will be those that spend the most money

So that should put us top 3. Factor in facilities and I'm not sure anyone has out spent us on baseball. We're pretty 17'n serious about baseball.

[ScooterDog]

Some of you guys have submitted good lists of candidates and good qualifications that we need. And I really appreciate that. Good work guys. But, I've been around much longer than most of you, and some things around State just don't change much. As much as I would like for us to hire one of the candidates mentioned, it seems like we usually hire someone who you would least expect. And that's exactly what I expect us to do in the near future. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, it just means that I will be shocked if we hire someone that has been listed on one of the prospective candidate lists. I will try to remain positive and hope for the best. Hail State.

[ArrowDawg]

First a little history lesson.

Before Polk we were a good regional Southern baseball program. Good fans/crowds and some SEC Championships up until 1976 and we hired a guy named Ron Polk. When we hired Polk I wasn't born but I don't think anyone ever thought MSU would ever win a NC. But it was fun to watch MSU baseball.

Then 1979 we dominated the SEC and made it to Omaha for the second time ever. And we won our first ever CWS game over Cal State Fullerton who ended up winning the NC. At that time, I would have to believe that was probably thought to be the pinnacle for MSU baseball. Going to Omaha. Not winning it all. Just going.

Then 1985 happened. And I think that team really changed everything for not only MSU but the SEC as well. And even though we finished third at Omaha I think this was the first time our fans really believed that we might win it all one day. That plus following up with a lot of success through 1990 as well reinforced that.

Polk retires after 1997 and we had Pat McMahon who did well but decided to leave for Florida and we brought Polk back which was a mistake. But I think we were trying to live on the hope that he might win a NC one day. He couldn't so we brought in Cohen which really divided the fan base badly.

Nonetheless Cohen was hellbent on winning a NC and despite the odds he built MSU back and got us to the Finals in 2013 for the first time- something we had never done before. And that renewed and reset expectations for the program. And built on that success he built a team that would set the tone for 2016-2021 which would become the most successful era of MSU baseball to date. Of course, as always with Cohen it wasn't without drama and we had three coaching changes from Cohen to Cann to interim Henderson who I am not counting and then finally Lemonis who coached the team to it's first elusive NC.

In between 1976 and 2021 MSU has not only won a NC, we have hosted and won SR as a National Seed, hosted regionals, won SEC Tournaments (I know it's a money grab but it still counts), won the SEC, won the Governor's Cup multiple times and Hancock Whitney Classic and been invited to every prestigious preseason tournament in college baseball. And along the way there have been too many iconic moments to count.

All of that is to say TLDR- the ONLY thing MSU hasn't done is become a true baseball dynasty. Which I would define as multiple NC's within a decade. I had hope that Lemonis was the guy to do that. It's obvious that he wasn't. So my point to saying all of that besides taking you through memory lane is this. When MSU hires a baseball coach we HAVE TO think about hiring someone that can take us the next step of the way like we did with Polk I and Cohen. And that is how MSU needs to approach this baseball search. Get it right. We're not a training ground for assistants. Our baseball program is a monster. And I don't mean that in a bad way. Monsters can be loveable. Like Cookie Monster. But when monsters are angry- it can get brutally ugly.

In hindsight- I don't think Cohen got it right with Lemonis. And yes, I know he won a NC. And is he a terrible coach- well, honestly I don't think he was the best. But I think in the right program and in the right fit I think he could be very good. I don't think that fit for him was Mississippi State. And I'm not here to trash him. That's not what I am going for here. What I am saying is MSU needs a coach that is going to be aggressive about trying to win the next NC and trying to become a dynasty. That means putting winning over patience with a guy that is struggling badly. That means dropping a guy down in the lineup or sitting them if they are struggling. That means taking guys out and playing to win the game now and not worrying about saving bullpen. It means working relentlessly on defense and paying attention to every detail and not letting anything slide because you know LSU is working just as hard at it. It means making a change at third base coach if your friend is causing multiple guys to get thrown out at home. And Chris had strengths too- he was a good recruiter. You can complain about "misevaluations", but the reality is the MLB draft has vindicated those that talked up how talented the players are and those players performance in the minors has also vindicated that. Chris and his staff couldn't tap into that talent much of the time. He and all of his coaches are nice people. They really are and I think for the most part he was very friendly with our fans- which has to be tough at times.

I don't know that our fans truly understand what we have at MSU in baseball and how REALLY special it is. I've seen our fans say that we are the same program as Tennessee and Georgia. We are not. The difference is our fan base. Tomorrow when we play Memphis we will draw as many fans as UT and UGA on a weekend SEC series. On a weekend we will draw more fans than those two schools COMBINED playing Kentucky in a dead end year as those two teams if they were playing LSU and Texas at home. It's not just the number of fans. It's how much they care. StarkvegasSteve had a great post about this how after 2021 Lemonis was overwhelmed with fans wanting autographs, pictures, and etc. I think the monster of MSU baseball consumed Lemonis. I think the monster also consumed Cann as well by the way. The only way to tame the monster is to be so focused on winning that the other things don't matter. And you have to have a coach that can handle that. Polk did. And Cohen did. Pat McMahon mostly did or at least he got away before it consumed him. I don't think they created the monster but they definitely grew it. But we need a coach that can handle that and that's why I feel that we need to hire someone with experience. Go find someone that can build a dynasty. And the best way to do that is to hire someone where we know who we are getting.

As far as the timing of all of this. Personally I was a little surprised that it was done in season. I think we should have waited until the end of the year because I really think even getting hot wasn't going to change much as far as what was ultimately going to happen. Firing him later also isn't going to change the time of the hire either- It's probably going to be after the SR while the CWS is going on if I had to guess unless we roll the dice on a mid major or a coach that gets eliminated early. I guess the powers that be knew that they were going to fire Lemonis no matter what and were maybe afraid that the team would get hot maybe go on a run and we're stuck with a coach who isn't a fit for another year or two? And I think Parker became the interim on the off chance that we hire a coach that wants to keep him. That said, I fully expect a complete house cleaning. All in all I think the AD handled Lemonis well overall. No way we were going to fire him after 2022 one year removed from a NC. If we fired him after 2023 I think it would have been a disaster and we would be stuck with a bad coach in year two that we would have to give another year for stability that we would ultimately have to fire. By waiting we essentially saved ourselves a year or two of rebuilding in the long run. And if you think the backlash from the media today was bad- try firing a guy two years removed from a NC. That would have extended to the coaching community too. We allowed Lemonis to replace Foxhall and things looked better even if we did underachieve. And then you have this year where we appear to be on a pace for 30-ish wins as I type this. So compared to what Cohen took over we're not in bad shape at all really. And with the portal we can recover very quickly as well. We should all be thankful as far as how well MSU has handled this situation overall because it has put us in the best position to hire the BEST coach while minimizing rebuilding.

I am looking forward to the future of MSU baseball and looking forward to hopefully hiring the coach that can build that baseball dynasty that we all want and IMO deserve.

Great post, Todd. Bottom line: We have to refuse to settle for another meh head coach or an assistant. We MUST go get an intense bastard type who will stop at NOTHING to put us position to host regionals and get to Omaha almost every year.