When Did The Football Downfall Start

[Santiago]

I do not mind Robbie honestly. He just thinks he speaks for the fanbase sometimes and thinks everyone agrees lockstep with his opinions. And at the end of the day, he is a fan. Just like us. He is quite irrational and emotional in his thinking a lot of times. That is why he is so sideways with Lemonis because he acts like a fan instead of a journalist.

He is just hard on his posts on his site. Comes across like posters annoy him. He seems to get into the weeds on threads and start disagreeing instead of just let it flow.

[Coach34]

So you'd rather lose your way than win a way that works? Hmm....sounds like someone else. I think you referred to him as Croomhead if I'm not mistaken.

I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successful

As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successful

As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.

I don't disagree that running glorified HB toss with our swing passes got a little monotonous, BUT we were winning. I also think Rogers arm limitations limited us as a downfield passing offense because they threw it all over the place when he had gunslingers at that position. Heck even though it was short lived, Costello slung it all over the place. We weren't running many swing passes.

[Todd4State]

I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successful

As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.

Throwing a check down to the running back is more exciting to watch than Dan running the QB up the middle every play and then our QB being constantly hurt all the time because he's getting teed off on. The funny thing about that is the RTDF crowd calling a check down to a RB a boring play when that is actually essentially Leach's version of a running play.

Keeping it on topic- I supported both coaches.

[Todd4State]

I don't disagree that running glorified HB toss with our swing passes got a little monotonous, BUT we were winning. I also think Rogers arm limitations limited us as a downfield passing offense because they threw it all over the place when he had gunslingers at that position. Heck even though it was short lived, Costello slung it all over the place. We weren't running many swing passes.

Will 110% affected the offense. Leach wanted him to throw it downfield more. I don't think he could read a defense all that well and when he was unsure he defaulted to checking it down. How many times did we have WR's running wide ass open with no one around them and Will just flat out missed it? It was a weekly thing with photos from MSU fans with guys with no one around them. Now the times was really on- we really cooked. Losing Polk and not being able to replace him hurt in 2022 and that goes back to Cohen and NIL.

Sort of on topic/off topic- Rosebowl wrote an article about a football analytics program that MSU developed that is intriguing to me. If we fully embrace analytics and apply it to play calling we're going to see pass/run splits similar to the NFL where analytics is already embraced. Announcers like to say that Kiffin uses analytics but I don't believe it. I think he uses analytics as a crutch for impulsive play calling. Best example I have is the 2 point conversion that Charlton knocked down to seal the win in 2022. That play had only a 2% chance of working. But similarly coaches in the NFL use analytics and it makes them more comfortable to be more aggressive because then they can justify a play call to fans in the media.

Analytics likes play action and deep passing usually and that's what we see a lot of in Lebby's scheme already.

[Cooterpoot]

Throwing a check down to the running back is more exciting to watch than Dan running the QB up the middle every play and then our QB being constantly hurt all the time because he's getting teed off on. The funny thing about that is the RTDF crowd calling a check down to a RB a boring play when that is actually essentially Leach's version of a running play.

Keeping it on topic- I supported both coaches.

Nah it's not, and it's got nothing to do with running the football crowd. It's about having a team that can physically play in the SEC and maximizing talent with a scheme. Leach took too long to develop QBs. You can look at his history and see he never played young guys and so he was stuck with Rogers. This past year would've been year 5 with Rogers had Leach been here. Leach wouldn't go portal a better player and Robertson didn't develop until he left. Leach was awful at recruiting because he didn't actually do it either. He had his little minion who screwed us over.
Basically, Leach was real good 20 years ago but was headed to retirement fast and he not kicked the bucket. He had one more season here to win a few games and it was over.

[Brobi-wan]

Yea 2015 and 2016 Dan not being locked in hurt us. It probably cost us the 15 Egg Bowl(which in turn cost us the Sugar Bowl), 16 South Al, 16 BYU, and 16 Arkansas. He got locked back in for 2017 and we saw what happened. He then zoned out after Don't Stop Believing against Bama in 17 and we were never the same. That night, up until that song ended, was the highest this program has been since and we're still searching for that moment.

I was there that night. On the drive up I told everyone we were going to beat bama. Had the refs not screwed us on that receiver jumping out of play and jumping back in, we might have.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I was there that night. On the drive up I told everyone we were going to beat bama. Had the refs not screwed us on that receiver jumping out of play and jumping back in, we might have.

That and had Dan tried to run another play before the end of the quarter. We had Bama gassed and were stuffing it down their throat. We then let them catch a break and killed our momentum at the same time.

[BrunswickDawg]

Nah it's not, and it's got nothing to do with running the football crowd. It's about having a team that can physically play in the SEC and maximizing talent with a scheme. Leach took too long to develop QBs. You can look at his history and see he never played young guys and so he was stuck with Rogers. This past year would've been year 5 with Rogers had Leach been here. Leach wouldn't go portal a better player and Robertson didn't develop until he left.

When have we not been a developmental program? Especially at QB. Outside of Will and Wayne Madkin, I can't think of an MSU QB who could actually throw a football who started as a true Freshman and had any kind of real, sustained success doing it.
Mullen sure as hell didn't want to be starting Freshman and Sophomore QB's. Remember - the only reason Dak got to play was that Russell got hurt. The only reason Fitz got to play was that the older Williams was THAT bad.
And what about the Leach 2021-22 Leach teams weren't SEC physical? Both went 4-4, which has only been bettered once this century. So, what you are outing again is that it does have to do with the RTDFB crowd.

And, Leach should have been loyal to Will. The kid took an absolute beating for him and won. In Will's 3 seasons under Leach, he had 19 wins - that's only 3 less than Dak had in his 3 years as a starter. And no one beat him out.
Will had flaws. But, I'll never understand the level of hate so many of our fans have for him.

[Cooterpoot]

When have we not been a developmental program? Especially at QB. Outside of Will and Wayne Madkin, I can't think of an MSU QB who could actually throw a football who started as a true Freshman and had any kind of real, sustained success doing it.
Mullen sure as hell didn't want to be starting Freshman and Sophomore QB's. Remember - the only reason Dak got to play was that Russell got hurt. The only reason Fitz got to play was that the older Williams was THAT bad.
And what about the Leach 2021-22 Leach teams weren't SEC physical? Both went 4-4, which has only been bettered once this century. So, what you are outing again is that it does have to do with the RTDFB crowd.

And, Leach should have been loyal to Will. The kid took an absolute beating for him and won. In Will's 3 seasons under Leach, he had 19 wins - that's only 3 less than Dak had in his 3 years as a starter. And no one beat him out.
Will had flaws. But, I'll never understand the level of hate so many of our fans have for him.

I said Leach took too long to develop QBs, I didn't say he didn't develop them. Although, look at his pro history, and it's mighty thin for a long career. Rogers wasn't good, and being loyal to a low end talent wasn't going to go well. He held back the offense. Leach was doing nothing to make the program better and was already talking retirement. He would've won some games the Arnett season but that's it and we'd still have been lacking talent.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I said Leach took too long to develop QBs, I didn't say he didn't develop them. Although, look at his pro history, and it's mighty thin for a long career. Rogers wasn't good, and being loyal to a low end talent wasn't going to go well. He held back the offense. Leach was doing nothing to make the program better and was already talking retirement. He would've won some games the Arnett season but that's it and we'd still have been lacking talent.

This is kind of where I'm at. I think we win 7 games in 23 with Leach but then what? He probably had 1-2 seasons left MAX after 22 so we're just kicking the can down the road to be in the same position we were in 23 and we're probably in that position now. That was the thing with Mike, there was never any type of succession plan. Now had we brought in someone like a Zach Kittley, GJ Kinne, Tyson Helton, etc. to be the OC in 23 and kind of set it up that they would take over then I'd probably be singing a different tune but I never got the feeling that was remotely thought of. Because you had to go Air Raid to not have the drop off we had and you had to go a very pure Air Raid style and those guys are probably the closest you could get.

[BrunswickDawg]

I said Leach took too long to develop QBs, I didn't say he didn't develop them. Although, look at his pro history, and it's mighty thin for a long career. Rogers wasn't good, and being loyal to a low end talent wasn't going to go well. He held back the offense. Leach was doing nothing to make the program better and was already talking retirement. He would've won some games the Arnett season but that's it and we'd still have been lacking talent.

Gotcha. But, that also pre-supposes that Robertson and Locke still go in the portal if Leach didn't die (they didn't enter the portal until January). And it's not like either transferred out and became immediate starters either. The flip side of that again, is that MSU has never been a school that quickly developed QB's. It's been an albatross around our neck for as long as I remember. Leach's pro history is better than MSU's pro history outside of Dak. And, Leach's tendency to only start older QBs was well known when he was hired.

This is kind of where I'm at. I think we win 7 games in 23 with Leach but then what? He probably had 1-2 seasons left MAX after 22 so we're just kicking the can down the road to be in the same position we were in 23 and we're probably in that position now. That was the thing with Mike, there was never any type of succession plan. Now had we brought in someone like a Zach Kittley, GJ Kinne, Tyson Helton, etc. to be the OC in 23 and kind of set it up that they would take over then I'd probably be singing a different tune but I never got the feeling that was remotely thought of. Because you had to go Air Raid to not have the drop off we had and you had to go a very pure Air Raid style and those guys are probably the closest you could get.

This is a great point. I do think that if Mike hadn't died we might have seen some sort of change to staff to do just that. He was sick a good bit of the year. However, that would have also meant that our AD would have stepped in (Mike might not have done it on his own) and I'm not confident that we had strong enough leadership to push it.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Gotcha. But, that also pre-supposes that Robertson and Locke still go in the portal if Leach didn't die (they didn't enter the portal until January). And it's not like either transferred out and became immediate starters either. The flip side of that again, is that MSU has never been a school that quickly developed QB's. It's been an albatross around our neck for as long as I remember. Leach's pro history is better than MSU's pro history outside of Dak. And, Leach's tendency to only start older QBs was well known when he was hired.



This is a great point. I do think that if Mike hadn't died we might have seen some sort of change to staff to do just that. He was sick a good bit of the year. However, that would have also meant that our AD would have stepped in (Mike might not have done it on his own) and I'm not confident that we had strong enough leadership to push it.

Well at that point we didn't have an AD and I don't know if Selmon would've wanted his first act as AD to be trying to force a hall of fame HC to retire.

[CaptainObvious]

Who is this Selmon guy y'all keep referring to? I never see any interviews. Never see him out among the fans except sitting on the front row of basketball games. Does he attend baseball games? Is he walking the stands speaking to fans at any event. Dose he do a podcast that I might watch? Does he go on radio talk shows? Does he hang out at Stagger In visiting with the crowd and drinking a beer? Who IS this guy?

[BrunswickDawg]

Well at that point we didn't have an AD and I don't know if Selmon would've wanted his first act as AD to be trying to force a hall of fame HC to retire.

Not retire - add an obvious "successor" like a Tyson Helton as Assistant HC/OC to begin to plan for retirement.

[Todd4State]

Nah it's not, and it's got nothing to do with running the football crowd. It's about having a team that can physically play in the SEC and maximizing talent with a scheme. Leach took too long to develop QBs. You can look at his history and see he never played young guys and so he was stuck with Rogers. This past year would've been year 5 with Rogers had Leach been here. Leach wouldn't go portal a better player and Robertson didn't develop until he left. Leach was awful at recruiting because he didn't actually do it either. He had his little minion who screwed us over.
Basically, Leach was real good 20 years ago but was headed to retirement fast and he not kicked the bucket. He had one more season here to win a few games and it was over.

His best QB ever was from the portal at Washington State. I highly doubt he would have been against that.

A lot of Leach's issue with the portal was Cohen era NIL. He was immediately all for NIL and the portal when Charlie took over.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Who is this Selmon guy y'all keep referring to? I never see any interviews. Never see him out among the fans except sitting on the front row of basketball games. Does he attend baseball games? Is he walking the stands speaking to fans at any event. Dose he do a podcast that I might watch? Does he go on radio talk shows? Does he hang out at Stagger In visiting with the crowd and drinking a beer? Who IS this guy?

He's done multiple podcasts and interviews in the last few months, he actually sits in the crowd during basketball games instead of courtside like Cohen, he sits in the same place at every baseball game(AD Box just like Cohen), and no one really goes to Stagger In anymore since they moved and killed their business.

[Todd4State]

This is kind of where I'm at. I think we win 7 games in 23 with Leach but then what? He probably had 1-2 seasons left MAX after 22 so we're just kicking the can down the road to be in the same position we were in 23 and we're probably in that position now. That was the thing with Mike, there was never any type of succession plan. Now had we brought in someone like a Zach Kittley, GJ Kinne, Tyson Helton, etc. to be the OC in 23 and kind of set it up that they would take over then I'd probably be singing a different tune but I never got the feeling that was remotely thought of. Because you had to go Air Raid to not have the drop off we had and you had to go a very pure Air Raid style and those guys are probably the closest you could get.

It would have been a lot easier to transition with our current NIL situation compared to our 2022 NIL situation. Charlie was just taking that over when Leach had passed away.

Thing is we probably could have gotten Helton or Kittley if we didn't "panic" and have to "save the recruiting class" in 2022.

And hell- if we had gotten Helton we probably would have had Will Friend, Bumphis, and etc on staff. Probably the route we should have gone honestly. He would have kept the offense similar and may have even kept Hollinghead.

[Santiago]

It would have been a lot easier to transition with our current NIL situation compared to our 2022 NIL situation. Charlie was just taking that over when Leach had passed away.

Thing is we probably could have gotten Helton or Kittley if we didn't "panic" and have to "save the recruiting class" in 2022.

And hell- if we had gotten Helton we probably would have had Will Friend, Bumphis, and etc on staff. Probably the route we should have gone honestly. He would have kept the offense similar and may have even kept Hollinghead.

This right here.... and maybe we are answering where things went off the tracks.
Reading your posts, and vegas, and others, it is a really good thread going on.
It seems to start to jump out that we went off the tracks noticeably twice....
1. Moorhead inherited a heck of a team and took us the opposite direction and too soft.
2. Leach came in and even with the Covid year , had us proud of our toughness again. That Georgia game was just one I will never forget, and the mindset the team took into that game. That had some swagger.
Leach passes away, and we are back to our decision makers to make a hire. We could have kept it moving forward with Helton, Kittley, etc and kept some good coaches without a big dropoff.

The off the tracks moments seem to happen when certain people and alumni groups were pushing for hires. This includes those boosters that pushed for Cohen to get hired.
To me, reading everything points right back to those that pushed for these hires.... Cohen, Moorhead, Arnett(intentionally go 180 from what was being built).
I don't think those boosters, and admin are really good at this based on results.

[StarkVegasSteve]

This right here.... and maybe we are answering where things went off the tracks.
Reading your posts, and vegas, and others, it is a really good thread going on.
It seems to start to jump out that we went off the tracks noticeably twice....
1. Moorhead inherited a heck of a team and took us the opposite direction and too soft.
2. Leach came in and even with the Covid year , had us proud of our toughness again. That Georgia game was just one I will never forget, and the mindset the team took into that game. That had some swagger.
Leach passes away, and we are back to our decision makers to make a hire. We could have kept it moving forward with Helton, Kittley, etc and kept some good coaches without a big dropoff.

The off the tracks moments seem to happen when certain people and alumni groups were pushing for hires. This includes those boosters that pushed for Cohen to get hired.
To me, reading everything points right back to those that pushed for these hires.... Cohen, Moorhead, Arnett(intentionally go 180 from what was being built).
I don't think those boosters, and admin are really good at this based on results.

The Moorhead hire, although looked at unfavorably now, was universally lauded as one of the best hires of the cycle at the time. However, Cohen did no due diligence with that hire. I mean we had MULTIPLE P5 HCs interested in our job and we didn't even interview them. The funny thing with the Moorhead hire is that everyone thinks we got our first choice. We didn't. We literally called Ryan Day, still OC at Ohio St at the time, and offered him the job without an interview like an hour after Dan left.