So does everyone agree that if we had a normal coaching search Arnett isn't the hire?

[Goldendawg]

What is very frustrating is that both things can be true and for some reason few posters want to admit that. Right now things are just really bad.

Anyone who doesn't look at our current roster and thinks that our recruiting the last few years has been sh!t has an agenda. We will lose close to 25 seniors who either start or play significant snaps for our team this year and most importantly these will be losses on both the OL and DL where we have zero experience coming back. We also don't have the damn bodies to even run practice in the spring beyond one starting OL, its really bad. This is primarily Leach's fault. It just is. Everyone knew that next year was going to really suck, we (hand raised) just assumed that this year would be worth it.

THe other true thing is that I agree that a Leach-run offense or something close to it would be no worse than 5-3 right now. The decision by this staff to install a brand new offense, and let's be clear - it is a brand new offense that doesn't tailor to the strengths of the current offensive roster was downright criminal. It was beyond stupid. The posters that predicted we were changing offenses were right, and the ones that said we were "tweaking" Leach's system were wrong. These are just facts.

As someone who didn't love the AR, i was hoping for tweaks, because I knew we had a QB who was very system based and that I knew that he could lead us to wins if we ran the system that he has proven he can win in. I also figured that with the SEC being a trainwreck (it is) that we could improve slightly on offense and take a tick down on defense and still win 8-9 games this year maybe more. Instead, we have Will Rogers running read-option and we can't score against Arkansas or AU.

I think the reason most people want Arnett fired because it feels like the MSU football program is riding on the Titanic. Our current team is senior laden and we don't have talented young players to look forward to playing, our current coach is clearly learning on the job and is one false start penalty away from being 3-5 and we are now recruiting jucos because we just need the bodies, and overall our recruiting this year is pretty average outside of a few WR's (I really like Stonka). So when everything is this bad, the easiest thing to do is change head coaches even though I'm not sure a new head coach fixes anything. That being said, with the way roster sets up for next year, i'm not sure anyone other than Deion can change next year's team into something I want to watch.

Our roster is and was completely out of balance under Coach Leach (loved the man, bored to tears watching O). Last Spring, I counted 21 slot type players on the roster between 5' 10" and 6", between 165 to 190 or so lbs. Most were on scholarship, but this count included walk-ons also. The count did not include ouside receivers. Add in about 4 or 5 or so QB's of which no one but Will ever got hardly got any snaps during games, even in garbage or mop up time which helped his stats no matter the score. No wonder we didn't have enough DL for Spring practice when a couple were hurt.

[coachnorm]

Of course he is- but that doesnt support the narrative soooooo

I agree with your mindset and would like to add on. We all can see what has happened but how accurate is anyone's conclusions. I am trying to absorb the status quo and struggle to get the accurate narrative. Is it CML decisions that evolved poorly or is it solely CZA? Granted, I see what other elitedoggers see and either blame be it CML or CZA could be credible so what direction is the narrative going? I personally have problems blaming one over the other.

[dawgday166]

What is very frustrating is that both things can be true and for some reason few posters want to admit that. Right now things are just really bad.

Anyone who doesn't look at our current roster and thinks that our recruiting the last few years has been sh!t has an agenda. We will lose close to 25 seniors who either start or play significant snaps for our team this year and most importantly these will be losses on both the OL and DL where we have zero experience coming back. We also don't have the damn bodies to even run practice in the spring beyond one starting OL, its really bad. This is primarily Leach's fault. It just is. Everyone knew that next year was going to really suck, we (hand raised) just assumed that this year would be worth it.

THe other true thing is that I agree that a Leach-run offense or something close to it would be no worse than 5-3 right now. The decision by this staff to install a brand new offense, and let's be clear - it is a brand new offense that doesn't tailor to the strengths of the current offensive roster was downright criminal. It was beyond stupid. The posters that predicted we were changing offenses were right, and the ones that said we were "tweaking" Leach's system were wrong. These are just facts.

As someone who didn't love the AR, i was hoping for tweaks, because I knew we had a QB who was very system based and that I knew that he could lead us to wins if we ran the system that he has proven he can win in. I also figured that with the SEC being a trainwreck (it is) that we could improve slightly on offense and take a tick down on defense and still win 8-9 games this year maybe more. Instead, we have Will Rogers running read-option and we can't score against Arkansas or AU.

I think the reason most people want Arnett fired because it feels like the MSU football program is riding on the Titanic. Our current team is senior laden and we don't have talented young players to look forward to playing, our current coach is clearly learning on the job and is one false start penalty away from being 3-5 and we are now recruiting jucos because we just need the bodies, and overall our recruiting this year is pretty average outside of a few WR's (I really like Stonka). So when everything is this bad, the easiest thing to do is change head coaches even though I'm not sure a new head coach fixes anything. That being said, with the way roster sets up for next year, i'm not sure anyone other than Deion can change next year's team into something I want to watch.

So I'm looking at the roster and what I'm seeing is no Juniors and Redshirt Sophs. So that would be the '21 class ('20 year during active recruiting), where most of the recruiting was being done via Zoom due to Covid and such if I recall correctly.

So yea, Leach can be blamed, once again, for lack of Juniors/Redshirt Sophs on our roster due to Covid restrictions also. New coach, no MS connections, and doing Zoom calls trying to get players to come play for him after a tough 2020 year and all the adversity there too. No quarter given there either. Folks have damn short memories SMH.

So any coach will be in a similar situation as Mullen was in '16, which turned into the '17 and '18 team after a big Juco haul in '17. But the base was set in 14' and '15 (which correlates to '22 & '23 here, and '15 was a good recruiting year for Mullen. Fitz was in '14 class). So yea, next year is a down year for any coach. We really won't know how the 22 and 23 classes will turn out for another couple of years at the earliest.

Thing is, I don't trust Zach and those surrounding him to have the experience to turn it around. I don't trust the current staff to develop the players that were recruited in '22 and '23. They certainly can't coach a bunch of Sr. and Grads that have played at least 3 years of CFB. All they'll do is make more excuses 2 to 3 years down the road about why we suck so bad, instead of rolling their sleeves up and getting it done.

There ain't too many really successful college coaches that spend a lot of time at places like Two Brothers buying rounds of beer. See Kevin Sumlin and the likes, maybe Jimbo too ... don't know. You won't find Saban, Dabo, Mullen, and probably not Leach either. At least your certainly wouldn't have found them there when they were just starting out as HCs, cause they were working ALL THE TIME.

[dawgday166]

So I'm looking at the roster and what I'm seeing is no Juniors and Redshirt Sophs. So that would be the '21 class ('20 year during active recruiting), where most of the recruiting was being done via Zoom due to Covid and such if I recall correctly.

So yea, Leach can be blamed, once again, for lack of Juniors/Redshirt Sophs on our roster due to Covid restrictions also. New coach, no MS connections, and doing Zoom calls trying to get players to come play for him after a tough 2020 year and all the adversity there too. No quarter given there either. Folks have damn short memories SMH.

So any coach will be in a similar situation as Mullen was in '16, which turned into the '17 and '18 team after a big Juco haul in '17. But the base was set in 15' and '16 (which correlates to '22 & '23 here). So yea, next year is a down year for any coach. We really won't know how the 22 and 23 classes will turn out for another couple of years at the earliest.

Thing is, I don't trust Zach and those surrounding him to have the experience to turn it around. I don't trust the current staff to develop the players that were recruited in '22 and '23. They certainly can't coach a bunch of Sr. and Grads that have played at least 3 years of CFB. All they'll do is make more excuses 2 to 3 years down the road about why we suck so bad, instead of rolling their sleeves up and getting it done.

There ain't too many really successful college coaches that spend a lot of time at places like Two Brothers buying rounds of beer. See Kevin Sumlin and the likes, maybe Jimbo too ... don't know. You won't find Saban, Dabo, Mullen, and probably not Leach either. At least your certainly wouldn't have found them there when they were just starting out as HCs, cause they were working ALL THE TIME.

Just thought of this but ... what I just posted might explain why most of the SEC is so horrible this year too.

[RockyDog]

When we lost Leach we also lost Arnett the DC.

We have better receivers than we did last year- but we don't utilize them like we did before. Will would still struggle to push the ball down the field because that is who he is. But he also never struggled putting up points on lesser defenses in the Air Raid and in year four of a system and with better talent surrounding him there is no reason to think that we wouldn't continue to have success- last year we played 6 or 7 top 35 defenses and so far this year we have played 1 and yet our PPG and total offense numbers are worse. We wouldn't have as many miscommunication issues that we're seeing and having players literally running the wrong direction or into each other which we are seeing too much.

On the other side of the ball we have an inexperienced DC which is a huge mistake to go along with a relatively inexperienced OC. Arnett is much better than Brock and if that side of the ball had his full attention there is no question in my mind that we would be better there.

The only side of the ball that is performing the best is the one we touched the least- and that's with a freshman kicker and punter.

We miss Leach's ability to manage the team. You may not agree with how he did it but at least he was consistent and everyone knew which direction to pull in. Right now I feel like we have several people with different opinions trying to get their two cents in and a coach trying to keep people happy while at the same time overthinking everything.

With Leach I feel confident we beat South Carolina and Auburn at least. And the Arkansas game doesn't make Football Sickos game of the week where we are declared the Iowa of the SEC. Beyond that- the LSU game would have been much closer if not a win and Alabama probably would have been more competitive too.

We may not have the most talented team in MSU history- but we do have a team and program that has shown that with the proper leadership we can be way more successful than we are now.

What better talent is surrounding Will? Woody is the same. Robinson is the same. Walley is non existent. Tulu did nothing in Leach?s system previously. Zavian maybe would duplicate RaRa?s production. This whole idea that the offensive talent improved and would have thrived this season in the Errr Raid is just pure fallacy.

[dawgday166]

What better talent is surrounding Will? Woody is the same. Robinson is the same. Walley is non existent. Tulu did nothing in Leach?s system previously. Zavian maybe would duplicate RaRa?s production. This whole idea that the offensive talent improved and would have thrived this season in the Errr Raid is just pure fallacy.

We really don't know the answer to that for sure or not. Maybe they would be playing better. See how that works **

We're back to, once again, hypotheticals which are never ending arguments. Before the season we were gonna be shown how Leach was stifling Tulu and not playing him in the right position. Now Tulu sucks. In fact, now everybody sucks and is stupid. Ok ... whatever.

[HoopsDawg]

I agree with your mindset and would like to add on. We all can see what has happened but how accurate is anyone's conclusions. I am trying to absorb the status quo and struggle to get the accurate narrative. Is it CML decisions that evolved poorly or is it solely CZA? Granted, I see what other elitedoggers see and either blame be it CML or CZA could be credible so what direction is the narrative going? I personally have problems blaming one over the other.

None of that matters. The only question that matters is do we feel that Arnett-Brock-Barbay are the guys who should be leading an SEC program. It doesn't matter if a coach has been here 1 year or 20 years, if the answer is no, you move on.

[Goldendawg]

None of that matters. The only question that matters is do we feel that Arnett-Brock-Barbay are the guys who should be leading an SEC program. It doesn't matter if a coach has been here 1 year or 20 years, if the answer is no, you move on.

Arnett - Rookie HC with 3 years DC experience over mid-pack SEC D.
Brock - Rookie DC with no SEC experience.
Barbay- Rookie OC with no SEC experience, 3 years overall, maybe, as OC with App State the biggest gig.

NO.

To add: One of our two, yes 2, OL coaches, Friend, who has been shown the door at what, 4 previous SEC stops?
S Coach - Promoted from Grad Asst at State, was told he was S coach at Texas State or somewhere.
Couple of rethreads back to us.

Throw in a new O that a Senior or Senior Plus roster had not been recruited to run (JoMo 2.0)



How did anyone in their right mind think this would be successful in the SEC West?

[dawgday166]

Arnett - Rookie HC with 3 years DC experience over mid-pack SEC D.
Brock - Rookie DC with no SEC experience.
Barbay- Rookie OC with no SEC experience, 3 years overall, maybe, as OC with App State the biggest gig.

NO.

To add: One of our two, yes 2, OL coaches, Friend who has been shown the door at what, 4 previous SEC stops.
S Coach - Promoted fro GA at State, was told he was S coach at Texas State or somewhere.
Couple of rethreads back to us.

Throw in a new O that a Senior or Senior Plus roster had not been recruited to run (JoMo 2.0)


How didm anhone in their right mind think this would be successful in the SEC West?

I'm just damn glad we're not playing a typical SEC W. Compare this year's Scoring Ds and Os of our opponents to last year's Scoring Ds and Os of our opponents. It's night and day.