Just curious, why do some of you expect us to be a great basketball program?

[Goat Holder]

Because we made the Final Four once?

Facts are:

- We are probably 10th in the SEC in facilities, above Georgia, Carolina, Auburn, Ole Miss. The Hump is old, seats what, 10K? Yeah we have a nice practice facility but does that put us above Kentucky, Arkansas, Mizzou, Tennessee, Florida and LSU? Vandy and Texas A&M are debatable I guess. Auburn's arena is at least newer than ours.

- Tradition wise, we have to rank behind Kentucky, Arkansas, Florida, Tennessee, Missouri and LSU. I really don't know about the others. Not sure how good Tennessee was before Pearl.

- We are located in a rural area that won't produce the consistent crowds necessary to be a basketball power (maybe this isn't necessary, but it is still a fact that our crowds are much smaller than the power schools).

- We are surrounded by Mississippi talent, for better or for worse, and are probably at their mercy. I don't know if this is good or bad. It doesn't seem the state is producing many Eric Dampier's any more. I've some of you say we need to be on northern or international talent, I'm not sure that is realistic.

I wanted Stansbury gone at the end too, I think we all did. The Stans lovers and haters both had ammunition until the Sidney Saga, which at that point I think everyone deep down agreed we needed a change, for better or worse. Now, people are getting on Rick Ray pretty hard. I think the man needs 3 years before we start bitching, and ultimately 4 years before you can fire him (assuming he slightly improves). And from what I've seen, we are better than we were last year. Won 10 against a harder schedule, so you'd think winning 13 this year would be equal, so assuming we win 2-3 more, I'd say it's a success.

Bottom line, reaching the NIT or better 3 of 5 years isn't so bad at MSU IMO. I think for most of Stans' tenure he was an above average coach. He reached postseason play 11 of 14 years and won the SEC, that isn't too shabby. I guess what I'm saying is, unless Ray misses the NIT next year, we really don't have a reason to bitch.

Disclaimers: I neither know much nor am I educated on basketball. Just my very vague GENERAL opinion of what I see.

[Coach34]

Because many people have this perception we were better under Stands than we really were. You see people post the "4th most wins in the SEC over a 10 year period"- but when you look at where we actually finished, it doesnt show that.

As poster thf24 showed:

3rd or 4th at worst? Here's our conference standing over the ten seasons preceding the 2012 purge:

2011-12: 6
2010-11: 6
2009-10: 5
2008-09: 6
2007-08: 2
2006-07: 6
2005-06: 9
2004-05: 5
2003-04: 1
2002-03: 4
2001-02: 2

In Stansbury's last 7 seasons, we finished 6th or worse 6 times.

[Dawg61]

In the last 20 years we've been to the Tourney 8 times and the NIT 6 times. We've been to 2 sweet 16, one Final Four, won the SEC tournament 3 times and been the outright champ once. We didn't fire Stansbury to fall back into the pack. We fired him to take the next step into the top tier every year in the SEC. That's exactly why I'm so tough on Ray. We are forgetting why we fired Stansbury and the Poor Ol Miss State attitude is creeping back in. Not for me.

[Dawg61]

During Stansbury's 14 seasons we were 4th in the SEC in wins and that's with a couple of turd seasons in the front and back.

[smootness]

We absolutely got rid of Stans in order to take the next step. But that doesn't mean anyone thought it was going to happen within 2 years. Everyone understood that we had to take a momentary step back in order to give ourselves a chance to ultimately get better.

It may work, it may not. I'm glad we made the move and I think the jury is still absolutely out on whether or not we will ultimately make the move forward.

Have we ever been a great basketball program? No. But we have been a good one and we have some things going for us. We should never settle for the back of the pack in the SEC, or even mediocrity. I think we still have the potential to be a very good basketball program, and I still believe Ray can be the guy to take us there.

[Goat Holder]

Using your numbers, we averaged finishing 4.18th in the SEC, so 4th. That's actually ahead of where we stand when you compare resources/traditions/fan support/etc. So like I said earlier, we're more middle range, anywhere from 6-10. So yeah, I feel like Stans overachieved over his whole tenure. But even overachievers have to move on at some point. King Jackie falls into that camp too.

I wasn't really going that direction though. It wasn't a bash or praise Stans deal, I just wanted to lay out some ground level realities about what MSU basketball really is. But I do get your point. We were not elite under Stans, although that SEC overall championship was very nice.

[C222]

During Stansbury's 14 seasons we were 4th in the SEC in wins and that's with a couple of turd seasons in the front and back.

We also only had 4 Tournament wins in 14 seasons.

[Coach34]

During Stansbury's 14 seasons we were 4th in the SEC in wins and that's with a couple of turd seasons in the front and back.

during Stands 14 seasons John Brady went to a Final Four and a Sweet 16

Stands was consistent- he only had 2 bad seasons- but where we finished overall in the SEC tells the story

[Goat Holder]

We didn't fire Stansbury to fall back into the pack. We fired him to take the next step into the top tier every year in the SEC. That's exactly why I'm so tough on Ray.

How do you expect a coach to make it happen with our resources, in relation to our conference competition? Do you want the coach to be a miracle worker?

the Poor Ol Miss State attitude is creeping back in. Not for me.

This shaming technique has worn thin. I am not of this thinking. I'm asking hard questions that I'd like someone like you to truthfully answer WITHOUT comments like this. I want to understand your point of view.

[Coach34]

Using your numbers, we averaged finishing 4.18th in the SEC, so 4th. .

That was his last 10 seasons- not his whole career

and the average I got was 5.2

[Goat Holder]

Actually neither of us can add...it's 4.73.

Either way, Stans was slightly above average, but definitely not elite. So it even makes less sense to hold Ray to any type of 'elite' standard.

I guess my baseline for Ray is to make postseason play roughly half the time, finish around mid-conference on average, and not embarrass the university on TV.

If we want more, fans need to start selling out consistently and pumping money into the program.

[Coach34]

Actually neither of us can add...it's 4.73.

Either way, Stans was slightly above average, but definitely not elite. So it even makes less sense to hold Ray to any type of 'elite' standard.

It adds up to 52 does it not- and divided by 10 is 5.2

You dont divide by 12- you're doing number of years

[Goat Holder]

You have 11 years listed. Take out the 2nd place finish in 2002 and you're at 5th place even.

[PMDawg]

The fact is we waited one year too long to make the move and we ended up hiring an unproven assistant and giving him a completely bare cupboard to work with.

[Coach34]

The fact is we waited one year too long to make the move and we ended up hiring an unproven assistant and giving him a completely bare cupboard to work with.

that's probably the best way to put it

[Coach34]

You have 11 years listed. Take out the 2nd place finish in 2002 and you're at 5th place even.

he did list 11 didnt he? no wonder....my bad

[Intramural All-American]

The fact is we waited one year too long to make the move and we ended up hiring an unproven assistant and giving him a completely bare cupboard to work with.

Exactly. So people should at least give Ray next year before holding judgment.

[Goat Holder]

I could go with this. I mean 2011 was the year of the Hawaii fight wasn't it? Yeah that's likely the year he should have been pushed out, 2012 didn't really do anything to further reinforce failure, just more of the same. I'd have liked to have seen what Ray could do with Bost, Moultrie and gulp, Sidney. Maybe he could have motivated him and if not, he could have been a hero by kicking his fat ass to the curb.

BUT...would Hood and the other signees still be legally obligated to play for us?

[thf24]

I'm not sure I agree that we fired Stansbury to take the next step. Had we let him go one or two years earlier, then I would agree. "Taking the next step" factored in to the decision, sure, but the main purpose of firing him when we did was to clean house. The issues that plagued the most talented team of his head coaching career made it clear that he had handed the inmates the keys and turned his back. Things had gotten to the point where they could absolutely not be allowed to continue in the manner they were.

[Johnson85]

I don't expect to be great, I expect to continue to try to be great. We need to hire a coach, give him a chance, and if he can't get it done, try again. Eventually we'll hire a good enough coach that we'll be good. At some point, we'll also be faced with a tough decision of knowing that the coach we have won't make us any better, but that we'll likely step backwards with our next coach. We were basically there with Stansbury. Had his later teams been disciplined and the locker room not poisoned, the right choice probably would have been to keep him and be happy as an above average SEC program but still not a good program. With the bad culture that had set in, it was probably best for everybody to move on.

That said, I think we're trying right now. Ray seems to be a pretty decent coach and seems to have work to do as a recruiter. It's hard to be sure since he inherited such a dumpster fire and is trying to recruit to it in an area he hasn't built up a lot of ties. After another couple of years, we'll probably have a good idea if he is not the answer, although it's possible he could have improved enough by that point that he deserved another year without us being sure if he's good or not.