One Small Observation of the more Powerful hitters in these Regionals....

And wouldn't you know every one of these hitters has a few things in common, that someone has been talking about all season long and the last 5 years.

Elbows pointing down toward the plate, hands around the back shoulder pre swing, and elbows pinched together. Hmm. Guess all those hitters are idiots and don't know proper mechanics that provide the most power. I understand most people on here refuse to acknowledge what I say about hitting mechanics, but for those who are watching these regionals, the proof is in the results. I've pointed out what mechanics influence power ad nauseam, but I cannot understand it for everyone on here. It's up to you to observe and start to see these things.

Missouri State Lefty has just about perfect mechanics and just parked one on the building beyond the 330' RF fence, with an effortless swing. Why you ask? Because he has power mechanics. Even one of the smallest guys for Mercer, led the team with 17 HR's, Why? You guessed it, his hands started off in the correct spot.

Which goes back to Wes Rea and no excuse for him not to put up 15+ hr in a 50+ game season. If someone had just made a few minor changes to his stance and hands he would have raked. Every one of our hitters would see power increases if someone worked with their hand placements, period.

ETA: Matheny for MSU just parked a GS and he's not very big, but someone please tell everyone where his hands and elbows where before he swung? He also finished out in front of the plate which is another aspect of the swing I've harped on. He finished out front of his body as opposed to around his body like most of our hitters. I really hope everyone is watching these regionals to obtain some Reference examples of what I've been talking about.

Are you talking about hand placement pre or post load? Bc it sounds like you are talking about pre load. Pre load approaches are a dime a dozen and they all can work as long as you get to where you need to be post load. Not saying your way can't work, but look at bonds, Sosa, trout, Griffey, Sheffield, etc. Pre load hand placement's only purpose is to get you where you need to be post load, but I would agree that simplifying movement and already having yours hand in a post load position simplifies one's approach.

Dude, nobody has ever suggested you don't have some idea of what you're talking about. But you have a very basic understanding, yet you believe a couple tweaks on every player equals power-hitting stud. That's why everyone thinks you're insane.

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/0d10...etContent.jpeg

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images.../_eCPnheJ.jpeg

Not much difference.

I hate to even respond to this but I'd like to point out a few things...

1)Pre load hand position doesn't mean a damn thing. Guys just need to be comfortable and able to get their hands in the correct position.

2) Wes rea was never consistent with his power for a few reason: he was a notorious guess hitter, he looked to go the other way, he drug his hands instead of getting the bat head out on a consistent basis (see my first and second point on him)

3) we would have hit with more power if we would have been in attack mode in hitters counts.

4) I saw good power strokes from hump, Collins, and even rooked during the season. Oppo power is a sure sign of a mechanically sound approach, despite the fact that they, Collins in particular, dont meet your "hand placement criteria"

5) heck, Robson, gridley, etc; weren't going to hit for power no matter where they start their hands.

All that to say this; we know you fancy yourself a hitting mechanics genius but your notion of only one way to get it done really screams that you don't know as much as you are so desperate for us to think that you do. The things you are saying aren't INCORRECT but I've been around a lot of guys that don't fit the narrow mold you suggest that could mash. Could an adjustment or two benefit us? Absolutely. Do I think you are aware what every adjustment is that needs to be made to get the mos ou of each individual player? Absolutely not.

And I have one more question: do you coach a 13 or under travel ball team?

This is why it's so difficult to explain things on here. Before the players swings the bat( ie pre load, load, whatever, because some players have zero load), the hands need to be in general area within 2-4" of the back shoulder with, at minimum, the front elbow down close to the core of the body. The lateral hand position determines the back elbow position, but with the front elbow tucked, the back elbow is forced close to the body upon swing, thus little to no loss of power.

And I only speak of the basics because getting more in depth is pointless on here. I would delve into pitch selection and reading the situation to know what pitchexnare coming, but attempting to explain basic physics and leverage of a swing is difficult for people to understand. As I'll say again, do boxers throw punches with their elbows out away from their bodies?

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

This is why it's so difficult to explain things on here. Before the players swings the bat( ie pre load, load, whatever, because some players have zero load), the hands need to be in general area within 2-4" of the back shoulder with, at minimum, the front elbow down close to the core of the body. The lateral hand position determines the back elbow position, but with the front elbow tucked, the back elbow is forced close to the body upon swing, thus little to no loss of power.

And I only speak of the basics because getting more in depth is pointless on here. I would delve into pitch selection and reading the situation to know what pitchexnare coming, but attempting to explain basic physics and leverage of a swing is difficult for people to understand. As I'll say again, do boxers throw punches with their elbows out away from their bodies?

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A hitter could start with his hands up his ass as long as he ends up in the right power/hitting position at impact. Please stop

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Originally Posted by KB21

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/0d10...etContent.jpeg

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images.../_eCPnheJ.jpeg

Not much difference.

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Huge difference If only a few inches are the difference in power. The further the hands are away from the back shoulder (lateraly, vertically and/or horizontally) the less potential power possibly generated. And look at Hump's back elbow. It's lateral to the ground. The only way that swing can get on the proper plane through the zone is for that back elbow to drop down either creating a loop swing or a reverse C. Top pic the hitters hands are even with elbow and an inch or two higher. This allows him to leave his front elbow in a more powerful position.

And those pictures are taken from different angles. Top has elbow on front half of torso, Hump is at least midway because hands are too high. Humps elbow also causes front arm bar and forces a gate swing (lots of rollover ground balls to pull side and lazy pop flies oppo). If he pulled the hands down 3-4" the front elbow would move back into proper position and the swing would be less susceptible to arm bar or reverse c.

One reason Reid showed signs of more power than most of our other hitters This year, was his hands starting that far back in his stance. Given the hands there don't lead to a higher batting average as would hands 3" lower, When he made contact he was able to generate more power than the majority of our hitters who start with their hands around their back ears. It's exactly what I've been talking about. We don't need a complete revamp of Our offense. We simply need a coach who can look at these things and move the hands a little. Leave the rest of the swing as is and we will see improvement across the board. Moving the hands just a little one direction can drastically change and improve a swing and results. There are multi drills that can aid the change (belt around body and front elbow, taking batting practice with back up against a fence, etc.) but have to change hand positions on most of our hitters if we expect any improvement in overall power.

https://youtu.be/GihW7AKcLIw

Here is a video of Joey Swinarski in high school. He was a noted power hitter coming out, and injuries have derailed his career at MSU. His hands and elbow are high in this stance, but notice where he drops both when he starts his swing process. He is in the power position. I think this is what Rogue is talking about. Where you start your hands does not matter. It's where your hands are when you are loading that matters.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

Huge difference If only a few inches are the difference in power. The further the hands are away from the back shoulder (lateraly, vertically and/or horizontally) the less potential power possibly generated. And look at Hump's back elbow. It's lateral to the ground. The only way that swing can get on the proper plane through the zone is for that back elbow to drop down either creating a loop swing or a reverse C. Top pic the hitters hands are even with elbow and an inch or two higher. This allows him to leave his front elbow in a more powerful position.

And those pictures are taken from different angles. Top has elbow on front half of torso, Hump is at least midway because hands are too high. Humps elbow also causes front arm bar and forces a gate swing (lots of rollover ground balls to pull side and lazy pop flies oppo). If he pulled the hands down 3-4" the front elbow would move back into proper position and the swing would be less susceptible to arm bar or reverse c.

One reason Reid showed signs of more power than most of our other hitters This year, was his hands starting that far back in his stance. Given the hands there don't lead to a higher batting average as would hands 3" lower, When he made contact he was able to generate more power than the majority of our hitters who start with their hands around their back ears. It's exactly what I've been talking about. We don't need a complete revamp of Our offense. We simply need a coach who can look at these things and move the hands a little. Leave the rest of the swing as is and we will see improvement across the board. Moving the hands just a little one direction can drastically change and improve a swing and results. There are multi drills that can aid the change (belt around body and front elbow, taking batting practice with back up against a fence, etc.) but have to change hand positions on most of our hitters if we expect any improvement in overall power.

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That's not either one's load position.

Pre-load hand position is all that matters**

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Are you talking about hand placement pre or post load? Bc it sounds like you are talking about pre load. Pre load approaches are a dime a dozen and they all can work as long as you get to where you need to be post load. Not saying your way can't work, but look at bonds, Sosa, trout, Griffey, Sheffield, etc. Pre load hand placement's only purpose is to get you where you need to be post load, but I would agree that simplifying movement and already having yours hand in a post load position simplifies one's approach.

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Agree with this. Back in my high school days, I even practiced the Kevin Youkilis approach. During pre-load, I would adjust my hand position up and down the bat. The way you really know your approach is working is when during post load the bat almost feels smaller and lighter in your hands after your follow through. At the end of the day, different players are going to have different approaches. How individual players get from pre-load to post load should be left to what makes the hitter most comfortable, and trying to tweak that is over coaching IMO.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

This is why it's so difficult to explain things on here. Before the players swings the bat( ie pre load, load, whatever, because some players have zero load), the hands need to be in general area within 2-4" of the back shoulder with, at minimum, the front elbow down close to the core of the body. The lateral hand position determines the back elbow position, but with the front elbow tucked, the back elbow is forced close to the body upon swing, thus little to no loss of power.

And I only speak of the basics because getting more in depth is pointless on here. I would delve into pitch selection and reading the situation to know what pitchexnare coming, but attempting to explain basic physics and leverage of a swing is difficult for people to understand. As I'll say again, do boxers throw punches with their elbows out away from their bodies?

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You don't even understand basics. That's why you can't talk about fundamentals properly on here much less get in depth. You have been shown photo after photo and videos of high level power hitters (Trout, Cabera, etc) debunking your thoughts. They don't do this even in stance much less pre-load.

He refuses to study videos and learn what is really going on. He refuses to learn from videos showing he is not correct and that stance and pre-load are NOT absolutes in a swing.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

Huge difference If only a few inches are the difference in power. The further the hands are away from the back shoulder (lateraly, vertically and/or horizontally) the less potential power possibly generated. And look at Hump's back elbow. It's lateral to the ground. The only way that swing can get on the proper plane through the zone is for that back elbow to drop down either creating a loop swing or a reverse C. Top pic the hitters hands are even with elbow and an inch or two higher. This allows him to leave his front elbow in a more powerful position.

And those pictures are taken from different angles. Top has elbow on front half of torso, Hump is at least midway because hands are too high. Humps elbow also causes front arm bar and forces a gate swing (lots of rollover ground balls to pull side and lazy pop flies oppo). If he pulled the hands down 3-4" the front elbow would move back into proper position and the swing would be less susceptible to arm bar or reverse c.

One reason Reid showed signs of more power than most of our other hitters This year, was his hands starting that far back in his stance. Given the hands there don't lead to a higher batting average as would hands 3" lower, When he made contact he was able to generate more power than the majority of our hitters who start with their hands around their back ears. It's exactly what I've been talking about. We don't need a complete revamp of Our offense. We simply need a coach who can look at these things and move the hands a little. Leave the rest of the swing as is and we will see improvement across the board. Moving the hands just a little one direction can drastically change and improve a swing and results. There are multi drills that can aid the change (belt around body and front elbow, taking batting practice with back up against a fence, etc.) but have to change hand positions on most of our hitters if we expect any improvement in overall power.

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For what it's worth, a good frien said Reid quit listening to our hitting coaches and philosophy and started listening to his brother more for hitting approach, mechanics, etcetera.

http://cdn2.thegloss.com/wp-content/...l-Head-GIF.gif

Am I the only one that immediately thinks of the principal in Billy Madison when this "power hitting" discussion happens each few weeks?....

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z_0wv8unxn...eshow-host.png

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Originally Posted by Bucky Dog

For what it's worth, a good frien said Reid quit listening to our hitting coaches and philosophy and started listening to his brother more for hitting approach, mechanics, etcetera.

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2nd such report on a player this year. And people still want to keep the "hitting guru"

This can't be good for crooting.

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Originally Posted by KB21

That's not either one's load position.

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And it's not their take position. Jesus H some of you are dense. Here's the main point. Keep the elbows in tight for maximum power and the hands as close to the back shoulder. Moving more to load decreases your time to see and react. Reid does not load and pinch in his elbows. He moves hands slightly down and back. Both cause front arm bar from where he starts.

Ok people for all of you nit picking, please watch the missle Florida's Buddy Reed just hit. He did exactly what I'm talking about before he "loaded" his swing. He pinches his elbows and wrists, then had a quick powerful swing through the zone, sending a middle over RF wall.

And we all heard throughout the season how "Hitting Guru" was teaching a slap approach which explains why our hitters hands were they were in a non power, slap contact position.

For what it's worth, when Johnny doesn't overthink he's very knowledgable on "situational" hitting and what play to put on. His mechanic teaching has never been there which makes me wonder who his hitting coach was at UK. Did the short porch in RF really mask his inefficiencies as a hitting instructor? Something doesn't make sense with it all.

Looks like Bakersfield is all Adidas, including bats. Been slugging it too.

Mechanical approach and philosophical approach are two different things. Our philosophical approach is what I believe needs adjusting more than anything. Our mechanical approach could be tweeked but in reality that's an individual player deal.

Humphreys' pre-load position is pretty darn close to Trout's, and if you google image search him, there's a picture of him post-load and it's basically identical to this picture of the Missouri State hitter.

This whole discussion is hilarious, though. Every time.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

And it's not their take position. Jesus H some of you are dense. Here's the main point. Keep the elbows in tight for maximum power and the hands as close to the back shoulder. Moving more to load decreases your time to see and react. Reid does not load and pinch in his elbows. He moves hands slightly down and back. Both cause front arm bar from where he starts.

Ok people for all of you nit picking, please watch the missle Florida's Buddy Reed just hit. He did exactly what I'm talking about before he "loaded" his swing. He pinches his elbows and wrists, then had a quick powerful swing through the zone, sending a middle over RF wall.

And we all heard throughout the season how "Hitting Guru" was teaching a slap approach which explains why our hitters hands were they were in a non power, slap contact position.

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This is Mike Trout at Stance

https://ubersense.files.wordpress.co...abm8opy9nk.png

At load

https://ubersense.files.wordpress.co...5-33-59-pm.png

At what point do you see him pinch his elbows together. Anything done BEFORE pre-load does NOT effect the absolutes that begin at PRE-LOAD. You are so think headed. I beg of you to show a VIDEO of a complete swing showing what you are advocating and breaking it down to prove what you are saying. Maybe your terminology just sucks so bad that it has everybody jumping on you but I highly doubt that. Anything done in stance doesn't matter but to break it down further. It's truly pre-set position. That is the true stance portion of the swing that goes into the pre-load and all of the swing sequence.

Look at Trouts hands

https://ubersense.files.wordpress.co...7-59-53-pm.png

One of the best hitters in the world is opposite of what you describe should be done. At some point you should either recognize your ignorance or show video proof. I have requested that many times and you can't do it because you don't know what you are talking about.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lX_dm39fkfw

At no point do you see Trout pinch his elbows together in that swing. From Stance to launch to extension he does NOT do this.

There is a reason that hitters to pinch there elbows BEFORE stance or set position. To also torq the wrists and it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think it does. That is a major reason we know you have not a clue about the swing. The elbow pinch has nothing to do with the swing and you see hitters do it then get in the proper set position with the power V position and the elbows seperate back away to proper position AWAY from each other. The amount differs from hitter to hitter and again stance is and should be individualized for each hitter. The pinch is to help hitters feel the "scap load" that occurs during and through load and launch phase of the swing. It however is NOT a position during the swing. It is just a cue that helps SOME hitters. Some it makes them too tight and the lose bat speed. That is all the pinch is. To help feel the scap load. Some like to lock in the scap early and use it for that. I prefer for the hitter to use it during load and launch transition and it is more pronounce even for those hitters. But again this is absolutely not a requirement for any hitter to do and as the above example shows, even some of the best in the world do not do it.

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Originally Posted by shoeless joe

I hate to even respond to this but I'd like to point out a few things...

1)Pre load hand position doesn't mean a damn thing. Guys just need to be comfortable and able to get their hands in the correct position.

2) Wes rea was never consistent with his power for a few reason: he was a notorious guess hitter, he looked to go the other way, he drug his hands instead of getting the bat head out on a consistent basis (see my first and second point on him)

3) we would have hit with more power if we would have been in attack mode in hitters counts.

4) I saw good power strokes from hump, Collins, and even rooked during the season. Oppo power is a sure sign of a mechanically sound approach, despite the fact that they, Collins in particular, dont meet your "hand placement criteria"

5) heck, Robson, gridley, etc; weren't going to hit for power no matter where they start their hands.

All that to say this; we know you fancy yourself a hitting mechanics genius but your notion of only one way to get it done really screams that you don't know as much as you are so desperate for us to think that you do. The things you are saying aren't INCORRECT but I've been around a lot of guys that don't fit the narrow mold you suggest that could mash. Could an adjustment or two benefit us? Absolutely. Do I think you are aware what every adjustment is that needs to be made to get the mos ou of each individual player? Absolutely not.

And I have one more question: do you coach a 13 or under travel ball team?

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Totally agree with this.

The thing I question about Humphreys is whether he will ever hit for average or not. He has always had power, but he never hit for a real high average relative to what you would expect for a D-I college prospect. The .419 on his bio his senior year might as well have been given to MSU by Mark Twain since it was "greatly exaggerated". I followed Humphreys his entire senior year and he was more like .360.

http://www.hailstate.com/ViewArticle...B_OEM_ID=16800

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Originally Posted by shoeless joe

Mechanical approach and philosophical approach are two different things. Our philosophical approach is what I believe needs adjusting more than anything. Our mechanical approach could be tweeked but in reality that's an individual player deal.

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Agree again. The approach we have had makes sense based on the types of hitters we have recruited for the most part. That should change over the next couple of years.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

For what it's worth, when Johnny doesn't overthink he's very knowledgable on "situational" hitting and what play to put on. His mechanic teaching has never been there which makes me wonder who his hitting coach was at UK. Did the short porch in RF really mask his inefficiencies as a hitting instructor? Something doesn't make sense with it all.

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Cohen was the top hitting coach in the SEC at Florida as well. It's very simple- if you have singles hitters with speed- you take advantage of that because that is their God given skill set. What you are advocating would lead to more fly ball outs and actually hurt us in the long run. That and the fact that we play in the biggest pitchers park in the SEC. Tate Matheny despite his size is not a singles hitter.

Basically- go watch the scene in Major League of Willie Mays Hayes taking batting practice and popping everything straight up. It's the same principle.

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Originally Posted by Smitty

2nd such report on a player this year. And people still want to keep the "hitting guru"

This can't be good for crooting.

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What can't be good for crooting is someone who doesn't know better, reading shit you say and taking it as fact. Read another baseball book and shut the **** up. How bout that!?

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Originally Posted by Bucky Dog

For what it's worth, a good frien said Reid quit listening to our hitting coaches and philosophy and started listening to his brother more for hitting approach, mechanics, etcetera.

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I have no idea about Hump bc I don't know him or his family, but I know you posted the same thing a while back about Luke Reynolds. I know for a fact he and Cohen spent a few hours watching film one on one the Sunday evening before the Arkansas series and he simplified some stuff in his approach and swing. He took off after that. I'm not saying it's all bc of that, but I think it played a part.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Cohen was the top hitting coach in the SEC at Florida as well. It's very simple- if you have singles hitters with speed- you take advantage of that because that is their God given skill set. What you are advocating would lead to more fly ball outs and actually hurt us in the long run. That and the fact that we play in the biggest pitchers park in the SEC. Tate Matheny despite his size is not a singles hitter.

Basically- go watch the scene in Major League of Willie Mays Hayes taking batting practice and popping everything straight up. It's the same principle.

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That movie was on today. "You may run like mays, but you hit like sh*t"

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

What can't be good for crooting is someone who doesn't know better, reading shit you say and taking it as fact. Read another baseball book and shut the **** up. How bout that!?

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Last time he said that we got a commitment from one of the top hitting prospects in Louisiana and then one of the more projectable hitters in Mississippi within a week of each other.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

I have no idea about Hump bc I don't know him or his family, but I know you posted the same thing a while back about Luke Reynolds. I know for a fact he and Cohen spent a few hours watching film one on one the Sunday evening before the Arkansas series and he simplified some stuff in his approach and swing. He took off after that. I'm not saying it's all bc of that, but I think it played a part.

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The fact that Cohen would allow our hitters talk to other outside people doesn't really bother me. It goes completely against the meddling over-coaching mantra though.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

That movie was on today. "You may run like mays, but you hit like sh*t"

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One of my favorites!

Why do people keep engaging this on an honest, intellectual level?

Humphreys is a year behind where he would/should be. As is Collins. Their injuries were daggers for us in different ways. This summer is hopefully when this all comes together. It's the most important summer of Cohen's tenure bar none between the development that needs to happen with 7-10 talented guys currently on the team in summer ball and the elite signing class itself and MLB.

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Originally Posted by engie

Why do people keep engaging this on an honest, intellectual level?

Humphreys is a year behind where he would/should be. As is Collins. Their injuries were daggers for us in different ways. This summer is hopefully when this all comes together. It's the most important summer of Cohen's tenure bar none between the development that needs to happen with 7-10 talented guys currently on the team in summer ball and the elite signing class itself and MLB.

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This is a good point about the injuries. Humphreys missed all of a summer baseball last year and had some nagging injuries this year. This will actually be his first summer baseball action since arriving at MSU. Collins- we all know about his hand. A healthy Michael Smith would have made a huge difference for us as well- he could be our Jacob Robson next year. The guy that missed most of the year with injuries that might come back next year and hit well over .300 and steal a ton of bases for us. We've caught some glimpses of what he can do defensively. Gridley, Cody Brown, and Luke Reynolds all had very good years for us as well- and they could all take big steps for us. A lot of people forget that those three are still underclassmen.

But the biggest thing we need to improve and that we MUST have happen is for the five pitchers in the Cape to step up- or at least three of them. We can talk about hitting all we want- but the fact of the matter is we are only going to be as good as our pitching is. I feel pretty confident about Hudson, Sexton, Tatum, and Houston stepping up. I'm still a little skeptical about Daniel Brown- mostly because I question his toughness. And even though he is not in the Cape, I think Levi Mintz will be better next year. More than anything, I think he hit a wall the last half of the SEC season. He reminds me a lot of Caleb Reed- except he's ahead of where Caleb was at this time of his career.

I think you would be shocked to see how similar Hump's numbers are to Renfroe's numbers when he was in his second season.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

This is a good point about the injuries. Humphreys missed all of a summer baseball last year and had some nagging injuries this year. This will actually be his first summer baseball action since arriving at MSU. Collins- we all know about his hand. A healthy Michael Smith would have made a huge difference for us as well- he could be our Jacob Robson next year. The guy that missed most of the year with injuries that might come back next year and hit well over .300 and steal a ton of bases for us. We've caught some glimpses of what he can do defensively. Gridley, Cody Brown, and Luke Reynolds all had very good years for us as well- and they could all take big steps for us. A lot of people forget that those three are still underclassmen.

But the biggest thing we need to improve and that we MUST have happen is for the five pitchers in the Cape to step up- or at least three of them. We can talk about hitting all we want- but the fact of the matter is we are only going to be as good as our pitching is. I feel pretty confident about Hudson, Sexton, Tatum, and Houston stepping up. I'm still a little skeptical about Daniel Brown- mostly because I question his toughness. And even though he is not in the Cape, I think Levi Mintz will be better next year. More than anything, I think he hit a wall the last half of the SEC season. He reminds me a lot of Caleb Reed- except he's ahead of where Caleb was at this time of his career.

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There is a significant influx of talent relative to the pitching staff that is coming in as well. I feel pretty good about getting all of these guys on campus. It will be interesting to see if some of them end up sticking.

If you have Dakota Hudson, Austin Sexton, Vance Tatum, and Zac Houston as potential starters on the weekends with Daniel Brown and Levi Mintz definitely coming out of the pen, I think you will see Kale Breaux, Ethan Small, Gray Fenter, and Jared Padgett get some time as relievers during the weekend.

Then, if he comes back healthy, you have Jesse McCord from this past year's class. If healthy, he could make a push as a weekend guy as well. Coming back from a labral injury in a pitcher is tough though.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

This is why it's so difficult to explain things on here. Before the players swings the bat( ie pre load, load, whatever, because some players have zero load), the hands need to be in general area within 2-4" of the back shoulder with, at minimum, the front elbow down close to the core of the body. The lateral hand position determines the back elbow position, but with the front elbow tucked, the back elbow is forced close to the body upon swing, thus little to no loss of power.

And I only speak of the basics because getting more in depth is pointless on here. I would delve into pitch selection and reading the situation to know what pitchexnare coming, but attempting to explain basic physics and leverage of a swing is difficult for people to understand. As I'll say again, do boxers throw punches with their elbows out away from their bodies?

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Nobody has true zero load. Load, which is definitely different than pre-load and are seperate in the sequence, has to happen to transition to launch. You have to have a negative move pre-load to load then a positive move to initiate action, this is load to launch. Simply put, an object at rests tends to stay at rest, this is zero load and never happens in a swing. Some players are very quite in their squence and this is what is confusing you I am sure but make no mistake, they have a load and have a negative and positive move during these transitions. This is not even getting into all of the external rotation, internal rotation, SCR, torq, etc parts of the kinesiology of the swing. But in basic terms, objects in motion stay in motion. You have to be moving (pre-load, load, launch) before you swing.

The amount of space between your hands and shoulders during stance is irrelevant. During load it does shift closer to what you are describing but Ted Williams and Barry Bonds and many others discredits this as an absolute.

No. Abduction, torq and load force among several other factors in the launch phase is what causes the slot of the back elbow into the side and the front elbow to move up. Look at a hitter from overhead and we discover that the distance between the elbows are exactly the same but core torq, abduction, etc causes the slot to happen and is the beginning phase of the swing and bat lag.

Your whole last paragraph is condescending ignorance. You don't talk further about the swing because you don't know more.

Eta. To answer your question about boxers

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8f37MKMqRaQ

I see a lot of elbows moving AWAY from the core at load to initiate the launch of the punch. Similar to an actual swing wouldn't you say. So no a boxer's most powerful swing is not with his elbows tucked in close to his body. Like a jab. A hook is much more powerful and it is away from the body and the body rotates with the punch for maximum power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Really Clark?

This is Mike Trout at Stance

https://ubersense.files.wordpress.co...abm8opy9nk.png

At load

https://ubersense.files.wordpress.co...5-33-59-pm.png

At what point do you see him pinch his elbows together. Anything done BEFORE pre-load does NOT effect the absolutes that begin at PRE-LOAD. You are so think headed. I beg of you to show a VIDEO of a complete swing showing what you are advocating and breaking it down to prove what you are saying. Maybe your terminology just sucks so bad that it has everybody jumping on you but I highly doubt that. Anything done in stance doesn't matter but to break it down further. It's truly pre-set position. That is the true stance portion of the swing that goes into the pre-load and all of the swing sequence.

Look at Trouts hands

https://ubersense.files.wordpress.co...7-59-53-pm.png

One of the best hitters in the world is opposite of what you describe should be done. At some point you should either recognize your ignorance or show video proof. I have requested that many times and you can't do it because you don't know what you are talking about.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lX_dm39fkfw

At no point do you see Trout pinch his elbows together in that swing. From Stance to launch to extension he does NOT do this.

There is a reason that hitters to pinch there elbows BEFORE stance or set position. To also torq the wrists and it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think it does. That is a major reason we know you have not a clue about the swing. The elbow pinch has nothing to do with the swing and you see hitters do it then get in the proper set position with the power V position and the elbows seperate back away to proper position AWAY from each other. The amount differs from hitter to hitter and again stance is and should be individualized for each hitter. The pinch is to help hitters feel the "scap load" that occurs during and through load and launch phase of the swing. It however is NOT a position during the swing. It is just a cue that helps SOME hitters. Some it makes them too tight and the lose bat speed. That is all the pinch is. To help feel the scap load. Some like to lock in the scap early and use it for that. I prefer for the hitter to use it during load and launch transition and it is more pronounce even for those hitters. But again this is absolutely not a requirement for any hitter to do and as the above example shows, even some of the best in the world do not do it.

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Wait, so you take one thing technique and teaching mechanism that I point out that will help players develop power and comprehend that I'm saying every baseball player on earth does this to achieve power? I never even said they should swing with pinches elbows. Are you really that dense or just trying to stir the pot? I was saying that using this approach aids in keeping the hands and elbows in a power position. My original post was that players hands in relation to shoulder and their front elbow placement has the most to do with power but you take one small portion, run with it and try to make someone look like an idiot.

And once again prove your ignorance. The picture you chose to diagram and draw a line shows his hands where? Are you that stupid? I've been saying that the hands have to be in a specific region, in relation to back shoulder, to maximize power. Your picture is perfect example. I've also pointed out what mechanics assure a hitter getting and keeping his hands at said point in their stance. Why must you take everything literally. The elbow pinch just assists player in keeping the elbows closer together in a power position and the hands in correct position to push through the zone. Did you watch Buddy Reed today? No because you are a moron and take someone literally, opposes to observing the requested example of the hitter you've been asking for. I said his approach is perfect for those who need help getting the hands and elbows in proper position. He pinches his elbows before he loaded, and then they relaxed out into a stance similar to trout. The pinching simply reminded the mind to keep them close to the body for maximum power. And no one would not expect Trout to pinch his since his skills are already much better than anyone who plays the game. I believe the thread was to the point of 18-22 year old players, of which stances/approaches are much different than our hitters approaches, and have more powerful swings.

For the last time pinching the elbows and or wrists assures that the hitters have their hands/elbows in proper position as to not roll over and maximize power. It also assured the front elbow is in a power position. The back hand/elbow is more of a guide to the point of contact and direction you want to hit the ball. If we had nine players with 1/2 mike trouts ability, we wouldn't need instructions on how to improve power. But we don't, so we need someone to move our hitters hands and alter stances. Once a hitters swing is aletered they need not pinch the elbows to keep their hands/elbows in position.

Please proceed. I fully expect you to show me some hitter who starts his hands around his asshole that bats .287 in your next attempt to discredit me. How about read entire posts before picking apart one sentence or paragraph and attempt to discredit. In the mean time invest in a DVR and watch Reed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

Wait, so you take one thing technique and teaching mechanism that I point out that will help players develop power and comprehend that I'm saying every baseball player on earth does this to achieve power? I never even said they should swing with pinches elbows. Are you really that dense or just trying to stir the pot? I was saying that using this approach aids in keeping the hands and elbows in a power position. My original post was that players hands in relation to shoulder and their front elbow placement has the most to do with power but you take one small portion, run with it and try to make someone look like an idiot.

And once again prove your ignorance. The picture you chose to diagram and draw a line shows his hands where? Are you that stupid? I've been saying that the hands have to be in a specific region, in relation to back shoulder, to maximize power. Your picture is perfect example. I've also pointed out what mechanics assure a hitter getting and keeping his hands at said point in their stance. Why must you take everything literally. The elbow pinch just assists player in keeping the elbows closer together in a power position and the hands in correct position to push through the zone. Did you watch Buddy Reed today? No because you are a moron and take someone literally, opposes to observing the requested example of the hitter you've been asking for. I said his approach is perfect for those who need help getting the hands and elbows in proper position. He pinches his elbows before he loaded, and then they relaxed out into a stance similar to trout. The pinching simply reminded the mind to keep them close to the body for maximum power. And no one would not expect Trout to pinch his since his skills are already much better than anyone who plays the game. I believe the thread was to the point of 18-22 year old players, of which stances/approaches are much different than our hitters approaches, and have more powerful swings.

For the last time pinching the elbows and or wrists assures that the hitters have their hands/elbows in proper position as to not roll over and maximize power. It also assured the front elbow is in a power position. The back hand/elbow is more of a guide to the point of contact and direction you want to hit the ball. If we had nine players with 1/2 mike trouts ability, we wouldn't need instructions on how to improve power. But we don't, so we need someone to move our hitters hands and alter stances. Once a hitters swing is aletered they need not pinch the elbows to keep their hands/elbows in position.

Please proceed. I fully expect you to show me some hitter who starts his hands around his asshole that bats .287 in your next attempt to discredit me. How about read entire posts before picking apart one sentence or paragraph and attempt to discredit. In the mean time invest in a DVR and watch Reed.

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You have been bringing this or hand placement at stance, up for weeks (nevermind that I have called you out on this before and you didn't address it then) and it has seemed that you exactly have been touting this as the KEY to a power swing. If that is not the case you could have said that a month ago but you didn't.

Show one video that shows what you are saying. You have not done it once. It may actually clear up our disagreement. But for your education the top hand (back hand and elbow) is NOT just the guide for a high level swing. Nobody swings this way. The backside is the major power generator of this engine. The bottom hand (front side) is more of the guide mechanism but they do work together.

I have already explained what the pinching is for or should be used for and there are MLB hitters who do this religiously. It is a power load cue but for the scap load. Keeping elbows close in relationship to core or each other? You have said both in this post. If you actually try swing with that feeling of the elbows closer together and closer to your core you are bleeding off a tremendous amount of power. The concept is wrong. At launch, if you are swinging correctly, the large muscles of the back, rear hip, and rear knee in conjunction with the linear stoppage and front side resistance and partial front hip external rotation begins the back elbow slot. That slotting comes from the body abduction and the elbows are very close to if not exactly the same distance between each other from stance through contact. During this phase. That is a major issue I have as you keep promoting this idea that they close the gap toward each other during the swing to generate power. That is completely wrong. Now they don't get further apart either but they stay the same throughout the swing at contact. Then at extension they will get closer together. Now back to launch, you should feel the "scrunch" of the lower back from the torq and the scap load into launch. The pinch helps give the hitter a pre-swing feeling of that load that will take place. Now a hitter may think he does it for various reasons and maybe even a cue for something totally unrelated. I know a lot of coaches who have moved away from the double pinch of both elbows and like to have guys do a backside pinch with a front side up swing to simulate what is done during the swing more accurately. For me, what ever works for a hitter is fine.

And you DO NOT push the bat throw the zone. You rotate through the zone with a CHP.

I Don't have to use Trout and have used countless other players including hitters from Vandy and LSU who you touted previously and used them to illustrate you are incorrect on several facets of the swing. You choose to not bring any of that up now and try to discredit what I was saying because in this post I only used Trout? Really? How many more do you need? I have used countless pictures and videos. Not one have you broke down for us.

In relation to pinching the wrist, that is for wrist load and torq or some use it rotate grip position a little weaker if they want to hit with more bat lag or oppo. Too much causes tension in wrong position of the grip or grip movement which CAUSES premature rolling of the wrists and bat. The opposite of what you advocate you do it for. So I disagree with you there as well.

I'm ignorant? The one thing I actually agreed with you on and stated as such, hand position at the back shoulder at pre-launch, you write a paragraph trying to state I am ignorant and my picture proved you correct. I'm dense? I AGREED WITH YOU

Now if you want to discuss tucked pre swings to remind the hitter that the hands have to be inside ball. Ok. I see that. But the pinch is not about keeping the elbows close to the core to generate power. And when the back elbow slots into the backside the front moves upward and away from the core the same distance. The distance between the elbows at stance to contact is the same. They do get closer at extension but that is after contact. The front elbow is not as big of a power generator as the rear elbow. Everything, and this is sports in general, power is generated from the back side to the front. The front side is not the major power generator in the swing.

No I didn't watch Buddy Miller today. I have been working with hitters all day.

Not gonna quote to save space...but your second and next to last paragraphs are dead on and, IMO, seperate high level from low level swing thinking, Clark.