He is just hard on his posts on his site. Comes across like posters annoy him. He seems to get into the weeds on threads and start disagreeing instead of just let it flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
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He is just hard on his posts on his site. Comes across like posters annoy him. He seems to get into the weeds on threads and start disagreeing instead of just let it flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successfulQuote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.
I don't disagree that running glorified HB toss with our swing passes got a little monotonous, BUT we were winning. I also think Rogers arm limitations limited us as a downfield passing offense because they threw it all over the place when he had gunslingers at that position. Heck even though it was short lived, Costello slung it all over the place. We weren't running many swing passes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Throwing a check down to the running back is more exciting to watch than Dan running the QB up the middle every play and then our QB being constantly hurt all the time because he's getting teed off on. The funny thing about that is the RTDF crowd calling a check down to a RB a boring play when that is actually essentially Leach's version of a running play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Keeping it on topic- I supported both coaches.
Will 110% affected the offense. Leach wanted him to throw it downfield more. I don't think he could read a defense all that well and when he was unsure he defaulted to checking it down. How many times did we have WR's running wide ass open with no one around them and Will just flat out missed it? It was a weekly thing with photos from MSU fans with guys with no one around them. Now the times was really on- we really cooked. Losing Polk and not being able to replace him hurt in 2022 and that goes back to Cohen and NIL.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
Sort of on topic/off topic- Rosebowl wrote an article about a football analytics program that MSU developed that is intriguing to me. If we fully embrace analytics and apply it to play calling we're going to see pass/run splits similar to the NFL where analytics is already embraced. Announcers like to say that Kiffin uses analytics but I don't believe it. I think he uses analytics as a crutch for impulsive play calling. Best example I have is the 2 point conversion that Charlton knocked down to seal the win in 2022. That play had only a 2% chance of working. But similarly coaches in the NFL use analytics and it makes them more comfortable to be more aggressive because then they can justify a play call to fans in the media.
Analytics likes play action and deep passing usually and that's what we see a lot of in Lebby's scheme already.
Nah it's not, and it's got nothing to do with running the football crowd. It's about having a team that can physically play in the SEC and maximizing talent with a scheme. Leach took too long to develop QBs. You can look at his history and see he never played young guys and so he was stuck with Rogers. This past year would've been year 5 with Rogers had Leach been here. Leach wouldn't go portal a better player and Robertson didn't develop until he left. Leach was awful at recruiting because he didn't actually do it either. He had his little minion who screwed us over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Basically, Leach was real good 20 years ago but was headed to retirement fast and he not kicked the bucket. He had one more season here to win a few games and it was over.
I was there that night. On the drive up I told everyone we were going to beat bama. Had the refs not screwed us on that receiver jumping out of play and jumping back in, we might have.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
That and had Dan tried to run another play before the end of the quarter. We had Bama gassed and were stuffing it down their throat. We then let them catch a break and killed our momentum at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brobi-wan
When have we not been a developmental program? Especially at QB. Outside of Will and Wayne Madkin, I can't think of an MSU QB who could actually throw a football who started as a true Freshman and had any kind of real, sustained success doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Mullen sure as hell didn't want to be starting Freshman and Sophomore QB's. Remember - the only reason Dak got to play was that Russell got hurt. The only reason Fitz got to play was that the older Williams was THAT bad.
And what about the Leach 2021-22 Leach teams weren't SEC physical? Both went 4-4, which has only been bettered once this century. So, what you are outing again is that it does have to do with the RTDFB crowd.
And, Leach should have been loyal to Will. The kid took an absolute beating for him and won. In Will's 3 seasons under Leach, he had 19 wins - that's only 3 less than Dak had in his 3 years as a starter. And no one beat him out.
Will had flaws. But, I'll never understand the level of hate so many of our fans have for him.
I said Leach took too long to develop QBs, I didn't say he didn't develop them. Although, look at his pro history, and it's mighty thin for a long career. Rogers wasn't good, and being loyal to a low end talent wasn't going to go well. He held back the offense. Leach was doing nothing to make the program better and was already talking retirement. He would've won some games the Arnett season but that's it and we'd still have been lacking talent.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
This is kind of where I'm at. I think we win 7 games in 23 with Leach but then what? He probably had 1-2 seasons left MAX after 22 so we're just kicking the can down the road to be in the same position we were in 23 and we're probably in that position now. That was the thing with Mike, there was never any type of succession plan. Now had we brought in someone like a Zach Kittley, GJ Kinne, Tyson Helton, etc. to be the OC in 23 and kind of set it up that they would take over then I'd probably be singing a different tune but I never got the feeling that was remotely thought of. Because you had to go Air Raid to not have the drop off we had and you had to go a very pure Air Raid style and those guys are probably the closest you could get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Gotcha. But, that also pre-supposes that Robertson and Locke still go in the portal if Leach didn't die (they didn't enter the portal until January). And it's not like either transferred out and became immediate starters either. The flip side of that again, is that MSU has never been a school that quickly developed QB's. It's been an albatross around our neck for as long as I remember. Leach's pro history is better than MSU's pro history outside of Dak. And, Leach's tendency to only start older QBs was well known when he was hired.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
This is a great point. I do think that if Mike hadn't died we might have seen some sort of change to staff to do just that. He was sick a good bit of the year. However, that would have also meant that our AD would have stepped in (Mike might not have done it on his own) and I'm not confident that we had strong enough leadership to push it.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
Well at that point we didn't have an AD and I don't know if Selmon would've wanted his first act as AD to be trying to force a hall of fame HC to retire.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
Who is this Selmon guy y'all keep referring to? I never see any interviews. Never see him out among the fans except sitting on the front row of basketball games. Does he attend baseball games? Is he walking the stands speaking to fans at any event. Dose he do a podcast that I might watch? Does he go on radio talk shows? Does he hang out at Stagger In visiting with the crowd and drinking a beer? Who IS this guy?
Not retire - add an obvious "successor" like a Tyson Helton as Assistant HC/OC to begin to plan for retirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
His best QB ever was from the portal at Washington State. I highly doubt he would have been against that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
A lot of Leach's issue with the portal was Cohen era NIL. He was immediately all for NIL and the portal when Charlie took over.
He's done multiple podcasts and interviews in the last few months, he actually sits in the crowd during basketball games instead of courtside like Cohen, he sits in the same place at every baseball game(AD Box just like Cohen), and no one really goes to Stagger In anymore since they moved and killed their business.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
It would have been a lot easier to transition with our current NIL situation compared to our 2022 NIL situation. Charlie was just taking that over when Leach had passed away.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
Thing is we probably could have gotten Helton or Kittley if we didn't "panic" and have to "save the recruiting class" in 2022.
And hell- if we had gotten Helton we probably would have had Will Friend, Bumphis, and etc on staff. Probably the route we should have gone honestly. He would have kept the offense similar and may have even kept Hollinghead.
This right here.... and maybe we are answering where things went off the tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Reading your posts, and vegas, and others, it is a really good thread going on.
It seems to start to jump out that we went off the tracks noticeably twice....
1. Moorhead inherited a heck of a team and took us the opposite direction and too soft.
2. Leach came in and even with the Covid year , had us proud of our toughness again. That Georgia game was just one I will never forget, and the mindset the team took into that game. That had some swagger.
Leach passes away, and we are back to our decision makers to make a hire. We could have kept it moving forward with Helton, Kittley, etc and kept some good coaches without a big dropoff.
The off the tracks moments seem to happen when certain people and alumni groups were pushing for hires. This includes those boosters that pushed for Cohen to get hired.
To me, reading everything points right back to those that pushed for these hires.... Cohen, Moorhead, Arnett(intentionally go 180 from what was being built).
I don't think those boosters, and admin are really good at this based on results.
The Moorhead hire, although looked at unfavorably now, was universally lauded as one of the best hires of the cycle at the time. However, Cohen did no due diligence with that hire. I mean we had MULTIPLE P5 HCs interested in our job and we didn't even interview them. The funny thing with the Moorhead hire is that everyone thinks we got our first choice. We didn't. We literally called Ryan Day, still OC at Ohio St at the time, and offered him the job without an interview like an hour after Dan left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago
It's rare for us to get our 1st target when hiring altho I think we did with Jan. I didnt hear about us getting serious talks with anybody else during that timeQuote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
And there's a tape of a OSU coaches meeting that was a part of something ESPN was doing at the time where Day asks Urban about the MSU job and Urban tells him it's a shitty job, don't take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
Nearly all pass offenses are similar. If you take Alabama or Ohio State play books, the schemes are similar. The terminology will be different. I am going to bring to light two pass plays (1) The Basic Outside Play and (2) Mesh Rail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
The Basic Outside Play is called “Outside” by some programs, and “Basic” by most high schools thru NFL. “Basic” was the build off play for the inception of the spread offense decades ago and is still now. Basic defined is the wide receiver running a vertical and the slot running an out pattern under the vertical. Elite high schools thru NFL sometimes run a higher out about 10 yards under the vertical called OHIO which means O outside HI high aconitum.
Mesh Rail is what it implies under mesh routes with a vertical up the hash mark area called the “Rail”. I personal would see, while sitting in the Scoreboard Section, MSU receivers properly leveraged in match-up situations because the defense would drop an additional defender in the short passing lanes to stop the Air Raid Concept. MSU throws against perceived separation and not match-up leverage so we get check downs? LSU and Ohio Stated do not have that issue. They do repetitions to win match-ups and they launch instead of check down DURING THE GAME?
Back to “Basic” and remember many offenses have this in their schematic play book. What the playbook does not have is the proper releases against defensive alignments. How many pages would it take to incorporate multiple releases required?
If you have a weak armed quarterback that does not master tight window passing, you have a weakness in the offense. If you have a weak-minded quarterback that can’t read or gets flustered at moments, the receivers have to step up and rise to the moment. So back to the two plays in this exposure, are the receivers scheme participants or are they players? Are the receivers spending practice time on scheme participation or playmaking? How much tight window work is being practiced?
I have coached receivers and defensive backs at the junior college level and have attended many passing clinics including many Air Raid presentations. While as a secondary coach, it was easy to coach against the scheme because the scheme is well known by those who need to know it. Focusing on scheme and dealing with receivers who know how to leverage and dominate a defender, while executing the architecture of the play is a totally different nightmare. How many receivers has Mississippi State sent into the NFL in the past 25 years?
I am closing with two high lights from maybe the best PUBLIC high school football program in America. There are a few PRIVATE programs better. They all got the message about tight windows and leverage unlike Mississippi State over the past 25 years. Enjoy your SMOOT high lights from back in the day?
file:///C:/Users/Norm/Downloads/Video/WR%20Cameron%20Smith%20thight%20window%20catch.mp4
file:///C:/Users/Norm/Downloads/Video/North%20Shore%20the%20Class%206A%20Division%201%20 state%20championship.mp4
I tried to attach North Shore High School football video from X/Twitter and it did not get on to the post. Go to X/Twitter North Shore Football for video to support this statement.
https://youtu.be/lUWKlKYjfew?si=MRg6mmOavMv28igD
Watch the ending of the Youtube video.
Anyone who thought Moorhead was going to be a good hire should legit be banned from any kind of sports broadcasting or writing. I have no idea where people ever got the idea this was a good hire. I live in PA and he was a joke amongst Penn State fans. He had a loaded offense that was given to him and he still could not get into the playoff. He has always underachieved given the talent around him. I was actually more upset when we hired Moorhead than Arnett. It was a legit lazy hire by Cohen without doing any real homework. Arnett did fool me a little bit that he might be an okay head coach, but I was not buying any of Moorhead's BS. Then he asked the players their ring size? Cringe!Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
This interesting because the MSU job worked well for his Florida OC, Dan Mullen. Then MSU and Mullen helped end Urbans Florida career, 10-7 game. DM even made it to #1 in 2014 Urban could not win at Florida without DM and Tebow.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
People don’t want to invest in this because it’s clear that those in charge, whether that is coaches, staffer, administration or boosters, don’t appear to know what they are doing. Why would I donate $10-20k a year for bad recruiting, poor talent evaluation, and continued bad coaching hires. I will invest but I want to see some cohesive, progressive direction from the entire athletic program and good choices happening. No one has seen anything like that in years.
What it essentially comes down to and goes back to is recruiting. If you want win match ups you have to have players. And the only way to get players is to do the one thing that MSU does not like to do and that is recruit football players.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachnorm
1. Urban Meyer is a POS.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer
2. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Dan Mullen ran down our program when he talked about us to other coaches.
I agree with that. The disconnect between the fans and the AD are big. Installing LED lights is a step in the right direction. Bringing back to interlocking MSU for one game even was a small step in the right direction as well- with the next step being to use it more and more until it becomes the primary uniform again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
For me personally, the most discouraging thing is I see MSU constantly making the same mistakes over and over, there never seems to be much emphasis on recruiting and bringing in blue chip talent- "Oh give up immediately on that guy from Meridian- Bama wants him." and boosters that have the football IQ that is incredibly low to the point where they make mind numbing decisions to the point where you question whether they really want to win or if they just want access to the program. There's a lot of screw what the fans want and what is really best for the program- we want what WE want.
And if you treat fans like that- eventually they are going to stop supporting the team. Because that is the only resort to change things.
The whole Mike Leach situation and how obviously botched it was- followed up with the typical MSU response of "It wasn't really our fault or anyone's fault because this is an unprecedented situation"- it's obviously BS and the fans are simply tired of being sold it. It would be nice if the boosters actually stopped hiding behind Keenum and actually took some ****ing responsibility for their actions for once. It will never happen until the next version of Rosebowl comes out with a book about it about 60 years from now.
I'm very tempted to just say- Hey don't give us your money if you want to run our football program like Louisville High School. But I know we need their money so...
It definitely is why I don't want to give right now. On top of knowing the money of NIL goes straight to 18-20 year olds and it is no investment, we also see bad decision making by our administration and those boosters that had the president's ear for Cohen , and then the group(if the same) for Arnett.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
Greg Byrne got our program turned in a good direction, but it seems we have yielded back to "one of us" hires and influences within the administration.
Well the inverse is do not give and I can guarantee we will suck if that happens. I have faith in Zac to get things turned around. I have tried to tell y’all how bad the administration was when Selmon took over. He literally almost quit his first week because we had people making 6 figures that did not know what they were supposed to be doing. 2025 is the first year we have had a competent athletic dept because we finally got rid of all the waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago
On the football front, I really like the changes Lebby made in the offseason. From the guys we brought in to the coaches we brought in. Again, I do not think people fully grasp how bad it was. Lebby is diplomatic about it because he does not want to speak ill of the previous staffs but he told people privately that we had a G5 AT BEST roster last year. His goal was to literally just try to outscore everyone. He was disappointed it took the offense so long to gel. He has told a lot people that had our offense been operating at the beginning of the season how it was at the end we probably win 4 or 5 games. I mean do you guys realize we literally could not have full practices because we did not have enough bodies to give us looks.
Well, we just had a good HS recruiting class and portal class and Lebby is effectively on year one this coming season because of the poor shape of the program. We've invested in gameday and brought in help for a terrible DC for the sake of continuity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
But the BC screwed up the ticket ordering with a terrible timeframe. The BC could 17 up a wet dream. They're the worst group on this campus and they hold all the money now. They've held us back forever and will continue to do so. Ticket sales are abysmal this year because they took a terrible stance.
Which is why Selmon has spent the better part of 24 months getting rid of most of that dept. You're not wrong though, they are without a doubt the worst group on campus. They had multiple people in that dept that had ZERO CLUE how to do the job they were being paid high 5 figures and low 6 figures to do. It was embarassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
And they still dropped the tickets on everyone right after the holidays with a very short frame of time to pay, after a big increase in cost as well. Say what you will, but that was another example of a terrible decision by them that is going to hurt football again. Selmon has to realize this isn't Oklahoma football. People aren't lined up to grab tickets and need a better payment option to afford it. I've shut down all giving over it and I'm not the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
What payment options would you suggest? I am simply just asking. Are you saying pay it in increments?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Yes, like it used to be. I can't come up with that money right after the holidays. I had to give up seats I've had for several years because they required too much money upfront this time and had a shorter payment schedule. Maybe I need to find a woman with a tax refund. I also like BI better for my donations but that died with the point system. Now they tell me what to pay instead of me telling them what I'm paying.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
They know they messed up, because they called after the deadline to offer an extension. Well, you poorly planned this and hung me out so I can't do it now.
I agree, and at the same time am saying the turnoff on giving knowing there is a small band of boosters and an some in the administration calling shots and they are really bad at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
I love the university, but it does not mean I blindly give to it when they have bad influences for decisions involved.
The whole Banner Mstate is another example. The ugliest crap I have ever seen, and yet it somehow made it for this long. I know some people out of state that want to send their kids to MSU, and probably will happen. They are not alumni.
So I asked them their take on all our numerous logos. They all say, anything but that Banner Mstate. They said they intentionally buy any other MSU gear without it.
They love the baseball logos, and the flying M(love the academic history to it), and to some degree the old interlocking.
Yep. I’ve worked for the State of MS for almost 25 years and you see it at every level and in every department. How Ole Miss pulled themselves out of that mindset and quagmire should be studied and published. It has completely infected the Mississippi State Athletic Program. After last season, my small group of donors officially pulled our athletic program donations and moved them to education. (Which is also not great right now but don’t get me started). And that was before the BC ticket ordering fiasco. The whole things just a total crap show right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
That’s well and good but you can’t expect people to drop $20k a year because “we promise we made changes and it’ll be different this time”. That kind of trust has to be rebuilt and the Cohen Crew absolute wrecked it. I mean, blew it up completely. It’s what happens when backwards thinking boosters are allowed to run things. They got what they wanted. And now we are where we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
They have a forward thinking administration, fan base, and boosters. They get a message and all get behind that message. Whether academically, athletically, or socially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
We on the other hand tend to have a reactionary administration, fan base, and boosters. We're late to a lot of stuff and when we get there we have 3 different messages.
It starts at the top. Look I like Mark a lot. I think he likes Mississippi State and he wants what is best for it. I just think Mark is too political. He had political aspirations for a long time and I think it's hard to shake yourself of that. Boyce has only ever been in administration. From Tri County, MRA, Canton Academy, Holmes, and now Ole Miss. He knows how to play the administration game, but also knows that when decisions have to be made, you make them. They are paying you to make that decision. Not someone else. Mark on the other hand, was in politics until he took our job. He thinks you need to have consensus before making a decision and wants to please everyone. That's not possible at any level of educational administration and definitely not at the highest level.
Zac and Keith are a lot alike. They understand what it takes to win. Keith was handed wagyu by Bjork and told to make a steak. Zac was handed chicken shit by Cohen and told to make a steak. Cohen 17'd this athletic dept more than anyone will ever know.
Their fan base understands what it takes to win. Their $5-$500 dollar fans know that they're never going to have any influence over decision making. They give because they know that thousands others like them are giving and they know all those donations will add up and make a difference. Our $5-$500 fans want to have sit down dinners with Lebby, Jans, and Lemonis every other week so they can talk strategy. They want a whole lot for a little bit of giving. And if they can't have that they stop giving.
The last part is the boosters. For DECADES, their boosters have been aligned and have had one common goal, WIN. Our boosters on the other hand want to put their buddies on the staff so they can look cool at the country club with their "insider info". We have no common goal. Each person wants to be more important and thinks their voice has to be the loudest. There's no consistent message. Their boosters are also in line with who gives for what. They know who the football boosters are, the baseball boosters, and the basketball boosters and they don't deviate. We have one sport figured out like that, basketball. Zac is trying to get the other two settled.
All in All, they get it. And we don't. But Zac is trying to change that. Also, I've never been a big get rid of Keenum guy but after typing that out. I'm out on Keenum. And that sucks, because I like Mark but what is he doing to make us better? We're falling behind academically, we only recruit within a 3 hr circle of campus, and our athletic programs are either impressively average or downright bad. So what is he doing to combat that?