Printable View
Just a random topic for the week to get away from Mullenspeth.
My guy is JD Drew. He gets bashed a lot but the guy was pretty damn good. Career .384 on-base percentage, 14% BB rate. Not a hall of famer or anything but he was a really solid player.
5th best hitter in the league with the Braves in 2004.
27th in wOBA of qualified hitters from 00-10. Pretty equal to Miguel Cabrera's 2000s
Palmeiro. He has one failed test and the world has tossed him in the trash.
I was gonna say Palmeiro. People who know him say that drug taint pretty much destroyed his life. He's not even the same person since that incident or scandal.
John Lackey - Guy has averaged 195 innings per year for the past 10 years. Has a career 1.3 WHIP that would be lower if it wasn't for his awful 2011 season. Career 4.05 ERA that would be below 4.00 if it wasn't for a horrible 2011. Career 2.7 walks/9 and 7.7 K/9.
Overall, he is a solid 3rd starter on a championship level team that gets a bad rap because of his shitty demeanor, divorce, and horrible season that cost Francona his job.
Lackey shut down my Giants in game 7 for the Angels to win the WS. He is great in big games.
My guy doesn't necessarily have a bad rap, but Shin-Soo Choo was arguably the best leadoff hitter in baseball this past season and doesn't get nearly the recognition he deserves. Choo got on base damn near every day, and he has some serious pop in his bat for a leadoff guy.
It's a travesty that Choo didn't make the All-Star team.
This is trueQuote:
Originally Posted by messageboardsuperhero
100% agreed. Will be more valuable when moved out of CF.Quote:
Originally Posted by messageboardsuperhero
Fantasy stud.
Stephen Drew - Has had a few bad offensive years, but typically hits .250-.270 with 12-15 HRs and plays plus plus defense. Has a higher career OPS than Elvis Andrus and plays equal defense; doesn't steal as many bases though.
However, since he can't get a hit to save his life right now in the World Series, everyone thinks he sucks. However, you can make a strong argument that he is better than or equal to Elvis Andrus, who is considered one of the best SS in baseball.
Zobrist is another under valued asset. Can play anywhere on the field and get on base with the best of em
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
WHA??? Not sure how fantasy baseball works, but, in real baseball, there isn't a player on the planet that gains value by moving out of CF unless he moves to SS.
Yea he got run off by Cleveland after he got a DUI.
Let me rephrase. His D is not good at all in CF which hurts the Reds. When they get another CF (Hamilton) and allow him to move to a corner OF spot his value will be better because he is less of a defensive liability for the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
You don't understand the value of baseball players then. The Reds may be a better team if they did that, but Choo's value wouldn't be greater; it would drop. In baseball, players that play C, SS, or CF (premium positions) don't have to hit as much because defense is a higher priority. Therefore, the most expensive players in baseball are players that can hit and play a premium position, which Choo currently does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
If Choo is moved to RF or LF, where the average player hits for a higher average and more power than the average CF, Choo's value will drop because his offensive production will no longer be an outlier among his peers at that position. (More easily replaceable.)
So long as Choo's defense is passable in CF, his value is higher. Because the Reds then have the option of going to get an offensive weapon, at a cheaper price, that plays RF or LF. If Choo moves to RF or LF, they don't have that option. The Reds shouldn't move Choo unless they think he can no longer play CF, which lowers his value, or they believe that Billy Hamiton's offensive production will be greater than that of replacement player they could find to play RF or LF.
It's all about supply and demand. There are more players that can play defense than can hit, and there are even less players that can hit and play defense. Therefore, players that can hit and play defense are the rarest and thus the most valuable.
It's not. And CF and LF both averaged a 99 wRC+ this year in MLB. RF was at 105 wRC+. Moving him to left is moving to an equal offensive output position but will better hide his defensive flaws.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
Of qualified CF Choo was the worst fielder, and it wasn't even close. He will be more valuable for the Reds in LF because he won't cost them as much defensively. In a lot of cases you are right about the CF/corner OF value but in Choo's case his D is so bad that he is more valuable in LF.
Zobrist is the ultimate TB Ray, in a good way. I bet Maddon would clone about 20 Zobrists if he could, then maybe give a few to Billy Beane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
Thats because LF is platooned more than any other position. Therefore the league norms will drop. A players value doesn't go up when he is moved to an easier position to play. It's logicQuote:
Originally Posted by Will James
Plus team's save money on left fielders because there are plenty of adequate ones. The best athletes and most expensive athletes in baseball play CF, SS, P, or C. Your value drops as you move away from the center of the field.
i.e. - If Miguel Cabrera was a SS or CF, he would be paid more and his value would go up.
Willie McGee. He was talented..but overshadowed by his grotesque appearance.
Stop it. Please. You are ruining baseball for all of us old folks with all these stats. I'm sick of wars and whips and ops and all this other stat crap. Baseball has been overwhelmed by stat nerds. No offense will james ...real or imaginary.
It does when his D is that much of a liability.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Only in baseball is more knowledge scoffed at. When you learn it, you love it and appreciate the game more.Quote:
Originally Posted by bully99
Negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
If your a GM, would you pay Choo more if he could play CF or LF?
This isn't a stat fight. This is a scouting and logic fight, vs a guy that doesn't understand the value of a baseball player.
Will brought a plastic spoon to this gun fight.
Gee why don't the Reds play Joey Votto at catcher or shortstop, he would have much more value there and allow them to pay for a better bat at 1B***Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
I think drew's consistency was never really appreciated. The guy just got it done day in and day out.
Because he can't play SS or C, but be rest assured that if he could, he would be more valuable and paid even more than he is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
Its about supply and demand Will.
Are there more 1B or SS that can hit 30 HRs?
If we were picking a Beer league team and you could pick the SS that hit 30 HRs or the 1B that hit 30 HRs, which one would you pick?
I'll take the SS that can hit 30 HR because there is only 1 or 2 people on the planet that can do that.
Likewise, there are probably 10-20 first basemen on the planet that can do that.
Premium position players that can hit are the most valuable.
Choo can't play CF. This is my point. He is a horrible defensive CF.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Thats fine, and I'm not disagreeing with that point, but his value on the trade market or free agent market doesn't go up if he moves to RF or LF. It goes down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
You can always move a CF to LF or RF, but you can't always move a LF or RF to CF. Therefore, CF are a rarer commodity, assuming similar offensive production.
If you only look at offense you would be correct. Half of the game is defense though. He is more valuable and his WAR would go UP by moving to LFQuote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Disagree, he can always to move to LF. He gets paid more money if he can stay in CF and holds more value on the free agent and trade market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
Plus the average MLB playoff team scores 800 runs. GMs try build teams that are capable of doing this. This is why Billy Bean didn't care about defense in Moneyball. So long as a player is capable of playing a premium position, you keep him there because it allows you to put a better hitter at a non-premium position.
This is why Johnny Peralta and JJ Hardy have stayed at SS for as long as they have. Are they great defensively? No, but they are adequate, and by being adequate and not having to play 3rd, the Tigers were able to put Miguel Cabrera at 3rd and Fielder at 1st.
Peralta more valuable as a SS than 3B.
Guys who gives a shit? You're ruining this thread with your titty fight
Don't tell me you would trade a SS for a manager?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
You aren't getting this. Choo is not able to play that premium position. They are premium because they are important defensively. Players that can actually play those positions an hit are great. There is a reason Votto is not a shortstop. The myth of Moneyball and sabermetrics is to ignore defense. The Rays shift more than ANYBODY. Earl Weaver was "pitching, DEFENSE, and the 3 run homer".Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Billy Beane cared less about 1B defense than others because its a low premium defensive spot. Ortiz is playing there in a World Series. Papi ain't playing SS.
And LF and RF are lower defensive spots than CF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will James
I'm not arguing that Choo shouldn't move to a corner OF position if he can't play CF. I am just simply, without a doubt in my mind, making the statement that Choo's monetary and trade value will drop the moment he moves from CF to a corner OF position because the team he plays for can more easily replace his bat at a corner OF position than they could if he was still able to play CF.
If Choo was having eye problems, and the manager, player, and doctor were all saying that he can't see the freaking baseball, would you play him in left or center?
He would then play Left OutQuote:
Originally Posted by Bo Darville
Look, first of all, Will was talking about his value to the Reds, not his value on the FA market. And his value to the Reds is higher if he's causing fewer runs to score because of his bad defense. And his value on the FA market would be as a corner OF anyway because teams know he isn't actually a CF.
You think that if Freddie Freeman played CF for the Braves, his value on the FA market would be higher? It wouldn't, because teams would know they're moving him to 1B. They don't just say, 'Oh you played CF for the Braves? Well, even though you had 96 errors and a dWAR of -55, we have to pay you more because that's the position you played.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
+1
Play him at 2nd. Uggla agrees with this.
Here's another question regarding Choo: Was his 2013 season as a leadoff hitter as good as Ichiro's best seasons as a leadoff hitter?
I would say yes, and maybe even better. Choo had a higher OBP and more XBH this year than Ichiro ever had in any one season in his prime.
I still can't believe Choo didn't make the AS Game.