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There was a positive -- sword starting looking like himself at the end of the game.
What do you guys think about going with this lineup?
Ready
Sword
Thomas
Daniels
Ware
I think this would put our best shooters on the court together. Use johnson as an energy guy off the bench
I am hoping that am wrong but this is the beginning of the end,lineup changes may not matter anymore.
I totally think that is the way to go
Yeah he did -- and actually hitting a few 3's hopefully pointing to some continued development for him from deep. He'd be our only complete player if that aspect develops.
I think that lineup is small. And Daniels hasn't shown the ability to play the 4 yet at all, while Roq has although he's struggled in the last couple games. Sword and Thomas are both 2's. Putting them in together(pulling Daniels or Houston from the 3) hurts our rebounding... but at this point, Daniels isn't really giving us anything anyway. He broke thru against St Louis and "was who practice reports said he was" -- and has since retreated into his shell and not done anything.
Team is timid. Doesn't play with any swagger. They've got to find that somehow or the season will be over in a hurry.
It is small. I'd hope that what we lost is size, we'd gain in quickness. Our team is terrible in half court offense, so we need to find a way to get easy transition baskets. I really don't know what to do, but our present lineup and sub pattern isn't working.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I think it's time to get ready more mins than bloodman. I think johnson is more effective is quick bursts off the bench.
What happened to Daniels ? That is a good question and if Ready is ready (play on words) ,he need at least 10 more min per game. Coach lit a fire under Ray's ass you are good at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
told y'all before the season who our best signee was, Juco or otherwise. y'all are going to eventually learn that I rarely, rarely miss in calling basketball talent.
OK who is it must have missed that post .Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
the Juco that can score with either hand either facing or with his back to the basket. He's a poor man's Tyler Hansborough and would've been huge for us this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat from MSU
I think Daniels has little to no confidence right now, and that it partially stems from the system in which he played in JUCO (minutes were spread around very evenly, no one was heavily relied on). If he can step up and embrace the role of "the guy," like we saw a flash of in the St. Louis game, then I think we can get back on track this year and meet the expectations of the more optimistic among us. But like I said in another thread, I'm not sold on Ray's ability to inspire confidence after taking nearly two years to get Fred right in the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat from MSU
Daniels just doesn't have confidence and is playing timid. He's second-guessing every step he takes on the floor. You can't do ANYTHING in a basketball game when you get stuck in that mindset. He's as talented as anyone on our team -- I want to see him get pissed off and play like it. The switch has GOT to flip for him.
These last couple of games is the first time I've really questioned Ray -- because year 3 is when judgement is totally fair. How we respond to this adversity will define what we can be under him. I don't think anyone doubted that we'd face adversity or lose some games that we should have won this season. We've got to step up and win a couple we're not supposed to.
Everyone forgets when we were a gnats ass away from missing the SEC tourney and thus(likely) postseason under Cohen in year 3 before we got hot late. It was total meltdown and a faction ready to fire everyone after we lost the extra inning game at Bama to drop to 24-18 and had gone 3-11 in the last 14 SEC games. Then, we rattled off 6 straight SEC wins to get into the SEC tourney by a game, took out USM and Ga Tech to win a regional, and the rest is history.
Good-to-great coaches show a positive response to adversity. Ray will have his chance to do that here. He's got to get it going though. I don't like how "even keel" he seems through these losses. I want to see him go damn yankee or intense bastard on someone and show some fire.
Daniels is a role player at best. Forcing him to be "the guy" will make things worse. He's Tito.
Hack, I know you and I differed on Stansbury and that is okay, but if anybody keeps thinking this will get better, they are sadly mistaken. I went to the Tulane game with a Tulane buddy of mine and we both agreed it was two of the worst teams in college basketball. Coach and his followers got what they wanted and now we see it is "be careful what you wish for". I would imagine when we give this guy another year and it is no different, we will still see the same folks who ran off the only really successful coach we had since Babe sitting on the side. You never remove a coach without a better one lined up. Basketball is at an all time low at MSU and will stay that way until someone figures out it is a revenue sport as well. It certainly is not now and we have lost thousands of dollars the past 3 years and it wont be any better this year. Don't be surprised that women's basketball outdraws the men's before the year is out. Even a novice can see the difference.
Where in the SEC is basketball not prettymuch at an all time low for?
Just to be clear, I love Stans for what he did at State. I did think it was time to move on after Renardo and all the internal political bickering within the Ath Dept, but we botched the coaching search big time. We are pretty bad right now. I can't remember being worse over a 3 year stretch than we have thus far, with no signs of getting better. Unless Ray lands Malik and gets that electric 2-guard he needs to fit this team and runs the offense through them, he's done IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by coastdoglover
Kentucky is ok.***Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
This is true but a lot of teams are showing signs of getting better.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Auburn- Bruce Pearl (enough said) just got their 7' transfer from maryland cleared and there's no doubt Pearl is gonna bring in top talent. Sold out their opening game for the first time in over 20 years.
A&M- House (transfer from Houston and former 5*) just got cleared and dropped 21 last night to go along with a top 5 recruiting class coming in next year --Thanks Stansbury
LSU- obvious nba talent on that team. Streaky team but talented. Has the number one player in the nation coming in next year.
Just a few examples of teams in the west that may not be great teams but have made moves to keep fans interested. And we're suppose to sit around and get excited over a 2016 class? Give me a break. We need help now and another 5'8 pg isn't the answer.
Arkansas isn't going to embrace sucking forever either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raytoraid83
This same "hope" has been dangling on a limb for what's nearing a whole decade of shitty basketball now. Wake me when the conference is back to it was before and is in it's rightful place beside the ACC and B1G....Quote:
Originally Posted by Raytoraid83
They haven't embraced it at all. That doesn't shorten their impotence or hasten their "fixing". All it does is make them unload coaches too quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Msu made a mistake. Let's not make another. The sec will be a lot stronger next year and it does not take much honesty to be able to admit it. If Msu does not move to correct it this season... we will be looking at a decade of horrible basketball and few people watching.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
This was the same line Coach34 used for the last 7 years he campaigned for Stans' removal...Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach
Our fans are idiots. Quit trying to make every 40 minutes the be-all, end-all in the big picture. It's not. 3 bad games in a row(all on the road) doesn't make us a terrible team any more than the 5 before that at home made us a great team. Everyone agrees we've got to do better or it'll be time to talk about making a move. That doesn't make right now the time to talk about making a move.
At what point do you say enough is enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Does he have a name?Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Not 1/4 of the way through what is, for all intents and purposes, year 1...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksondevildog
Why is it so hard to give the guy one full season where the deck isn't stacked against him before we start trying to decide his future for him?
Why does every shitty performance have to be applied to the big picture? Why can't it just be a shitty performance that's(actually) about 3% of the total picture of ONE season?
I really am going to have to rewind and link SPS to the day Cohen dropped the first two against Alabama in year 3 to fall to 7-13 in the SEC and 24-18 overall(with a shitty schedule) and fully out of postseason contention at the time for people to understand where I'm coming from aren't I?
Let year 3 play out. Expectations are clear. No one is taking up for the last 3 shitburger performances. But they don't define a whole season either.
I confess that I have only listened to two hoops games this year. Both games had Richard Williams with color commentary. This may be pre-Germanic, but this periodic or is this the new gig for Williams?
I know less about basketball now than I did before Ray was hired. I'm not knocking Ray, I just don't understand how basketball players that have been playing most of their lives...and are now in a major college program), can't shoot the ball with better percentages. Hell, even if I practiced that much I'd like to think I would be a better shooter down the road than I am today. I'm not talking about having to make contested shots with a 6'7 PG in your face, but just making open shots. Eventually you should get a feel for the net.
http://sixpackspeak.yuku.com/forums/...0#.VI3e9ivF-So
Feel free to scroll through a dozen pages each way and check out the prevailing thoughts on our baseball team at that time.
I'm not saying Ray = Cohen. I'm saying that impulsive "big picture" thoughts after bad performances/after a rebuild during the middle of the season are a bad idea. There's SO much gold from those couple of pages given the benefit of our hindsight now that should speak to people's ability to call a bad performance a bad performance without wanting to fire coaches midseason. But I already know that those who don't get it won't....
He's been there all year. Probably just doing it till he replaces ray*Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Fillmore
The difference between Cohen and Ray is totally different. We all knew that Cohen was recruiting his way out of the mess. He was bringing in top 10 classes. I don't see a lot that makes me excited about next year. Ware is improved, but sword and Thomas are about the same players that they were as freshmen. The kid from Jones JC will help, but it will probably take him a year to adjust at MSU because we are MSU. Theres also no telling how many injuries we will have in the off season. I'm not saying that I want Ray fired. It just seems like we give too long of a leash before we pull the plug on a coach.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
How's that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksondevildog
We obviously didn't know any of that at the time. Read up on it.Quote:
We all knew that Cohen was recruiting his way out of the mess.
http://sixpackspeak.yuku.com/forums/...0#.VI3e9ivF-So
Ray's last 3 commits have been many-offer 4*s. And in spite of our message board crowd wanting Ray fired right this minute, Malik Newman is still trending toward us.Quote:
He was bringing in top 10 classes.
No one saw anything to be excited about with Cohen at this point in his tenure either.Quote:
I don't see a lot that makes me excited about next year.
See -- This is what I'm talking about. Same players?Quote:
Ware is improved, but sword and Thomas are about the same players that they were as freshmen.
Sword 2013: .405FG%, .194 3P%, .554FT%, 2.9RPG, 2.3APG, 1.7SPG, 4TOPG
2014(since he hasn't made 100% this year yet off injury): .485FG%, .273 3P%, .620FT%, 3.8RPG, 2.8APG, 1.9SPG, 3TOPG
Thomas 2013: .328FG%, .238 3P%, 3.5RPG, 13.0PPG
2015: .405FG%, .439 3P%, 4.8RPG, 9.7PPG
What's the same about that? Fact is -- Thomas is going to shoot well north of 40% from 3 this year, and I think Sword can get up to the mid 30s as well, which isn't great -- but makes him a threat that we don't currently get from the spot.
He'll be here a year and almost a half before he sees the court at MSU -- so I guess that's a good thing...Quote:
The kid from Jones JC will help, but it will probably take him a year to adjust at MSU because we are MSU.
Have had one major injury in last 2 years here. So, I'd set the over/under at 0.5Quote:
Theres also no telling how many injuries we will have in the off season.
Asking for people to withhold judgement until the end of year 3 is "too long of leash"? If he doesn't show DRASTIC improvement over what he's shown the first 2 years and the last 3 games by the end of the year, EVERYONE will be ready for him to go. That's the logical timeframe of judgement.Quote:
I'm not saying that I want Ray fired. It just seems like we give too long of a leash before we pull the plug on a coach.
It doesn't mean that we can't and shouldn't get pissed about shitburger games. We should. It's attempting to apply the big picture on a very narrow snapshot of the overall data that I've got the problem with. We get closer to the whole picture, then we can talk about what direction we need to go.
You can break down the discussion however you want, but Ray will not be our head coach at MSU if things continue as they are currently going. Cohen was a MSU guy that was a relentless recruiter and was signing pitching arms to fix the mess that he inherited. You can turn around MSU baseball quicker than you can basketball because we historically recruit better. Cohen won the SEC at Kentucky. He was a proven recruiter and head coach. Some of our players are statistically improved but we are a shit show at times and make stupid turnovers for "juniors". We have long periods of play where don't score ONE basket. We can look at 2016 commitments, but they can't help this year or next. It's also rare for us to sign guys that are impact guys as freshmen. So that means those 2016 guys will really contribute in 2017 or 2018. I'll just sit back and say everything is ok for the next three years regardless of what the product looks like cohesively on the court. Stats are one thing, but the way a group plays together is another.
Right. Logically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacksondevildog
If you would actually read the link posted(twice now), you would say the exact same thing about Cohen "if things had continued as they were currently going."Quote:
but Ray will not be our head coach at MSU if things continue as they are currently going.
Ray not a relentless recruiter now? HAHA. He's recruiting his ass off effort-wise and anyone thinking/saying otherwise is pushing an agenda or are very uninformed...Quote:
Cohen was a MSU guy that was a relentless recruiter
Why did it take into year 4 for our pitching staff to be decent? Hell, everyone still wanted Butch fired AFTER we made the run in 2011(a run largely carried by our SR JUCO bats). In 2012, Butch had the best pitching staff in the country and one of the best in MSU history. And everyone has tried to edit their thoughts at the time to where "they knew it all along" when NOTHING is further from the truth, and I linked you literally hundreds of posts and threads of evidence. There were those that had his/Cohen's back throughout -- but they were few.Quote:
was signing pitching arms to fix the mess that he inherited.
If that's actually the case(I disagree btw), then you are willing to wait into year 4 to start judging Ray then? Your words that it takes longer -- not mine. Personally, I'm judging Ray extensively on what happens this season.Quote:
You can turn around MSU baseball quicker than you can basketball because we historically recruit better.
Which didn't prevent our fanbase from wanting his head on a platter. Also has nothing to do with the point I'm making, which involves "big picture" posting when things are going badly in the middle of a very long season.Quote:
Cohen won the SEC at Kentucky. He was a proven recruiter and head coach.
All. Basically all of our(healthy) players are statistically improved across the board.Quote:
Some of our players are statistically improved but we are a shit show at times and make stupid turnovers for "juniors".
Yes, we do make some of the worst damn turnovers I've ever seen and it pisses me off when we do.
Very annoying, I agree.Quote:
We have long periods of play where don't score ONE basket.
Look at the 2015 guys then.Quote:
We can look at 2016 commitments, but they can't help this year or next.
Rare at MSU? You're kidding right? Tookie, Weatherspoon, Hicks, Simonds, Newman = ALL immediate-impact freshmen on this team if healthy.Quote:
It's also rare for us to sign guys that are impact guys as freshmen.
We're going to redshirt the 4*s?Quote:
So that means those 2016 guys will really contribute in 2017 or 2018.
Where did anyone talk about 3 years of patience? You pulled that out of thin air.Quote:
I'll just sit back and say everything is ok for the next three years regardless of what the product looks like cohesively on the court.
Just admit you were wrong about Sword and Thomas. You spoke impulsively(which is exactly what I'm taking issue with), was wrong, and are now trying to paint "reality" as something immeasurable to avoid admitting that.Quote:
Stats are one thing, but the way a group plays together is another.
To me, Sword isn't better than he was as a freshman. Everyone knows that he can't shoot and they try to limit his penetration toward the rim. Thomas is better. I misspoke about him. He is a little better. He is better defensively than he is offensively and he is supposed to be our best offensive shooter. The problem with talking to you is you never feel that you are wrong and everyone else is right. You can find my post from yesterday (I know you are good at the search feature) about if Ray doesn't sign Newman, he will lose a part of the fan base that still holds out hope. If he signs Newman, I feel that revitalizes the program to an extent and gives us some momentum going into next year. There were only a few people that wanted Cohen fired. They were people that probably still believed that our program and facilities were better than Ole Miss at the time and that we should have hired Raffo and keep Polk to run the camps. It was obvious when a son of a bitch gets thrown out of a baseball game and drives to Meridian to recruit Corey Dickerson from Meridian CC that the guy was a relentless recruiter. He never made excuses about lack of talent. He just said that things were going to be fixed. I never felt a sense or urgency from Ray. It seemed to me as a fan like he felt that it would take 2.5 years to amass a full SEC roster. Cohen would have never had a manager playing SS so we could scrimmage. Most of our fans feel the same way. That's why you see shitty attendance at ALL of our games. I still want Ray to succeed at MSU. I just don't act like things are getting so much better when I see only marginal tectonic plate speed improvement.
First, I didn't call for Stan's removal. Second, it's 100% not the same thing at all. Stans was winning and Ray is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Last, don't act like you are some kind of God fan and everybody is beneath you. You're not.
What a short memory you have. Seems not to long ago Florida was winning National titles and we competed with them consistently. Don't tell me we shouldn't be competing because I do agree the league is not near as good now but it isn't going to matter because we aren't going to sign Newman and even if we do, a one year fix won't fix this mess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
To keep or fire ray decision will be obvious by the end of this season imo. No Ray supporters will stand up for him if this season turns into the previous two. No one will listen to the ray detractors if we have a decent year.
Zuppardo. Thought that was obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by chef dixon
I tried to prepare you guys for this. Here is my post from last week:
"We simply can't make shots."
"If Ray's recruiting was on the same level as his first 2 1/2 classes then I would say it's time to move on. But recruiting is trending up. I like this 2015 class and definitely like the first 2 commits for 2016. Problem is, it's going to be a while before we enjoy the fruits of his labor. Will we be patient?"
Ray inherited a program in a hole. Then he dug the hole a little deeper with those first two recruiting classes. There is nothing that can be done until we get better players in here. Fortunately, Ray's 2015 and 2016 classes look good. Getting rid of Ray after this season wouldn't be what's best for the program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Or we could have signed Pollard