Of course the power trip scoob comes along

[Johnson85]

One issue with your position here. Absolute truth has no expiration date. Moral laws are real and you have no moral law without a moral law giver. Gay marriage has a moral side and a legal side. Gay marriage is wrong and it doesn't benefit the people or society as a whole and brings judgment. You cheapen the real thing when you offer a counterfeit which is what that is. If you can't see this truth, answer one question. If it is so right then if everyone did it, where would society be? Easy answer - extinct.

Society has the wrong views because they look to the wrong sources for the answers. Just because something gets accepted doesn't make it right.

Maybe I'm misreading your post, if so I apologize for that but the facts remain for anyone else.

The government recognizing same sex legal marriage didn't cheapen marriage. We had already accomplished that, with the support of a lot (a majority?) of Christians by allowing no fault divorces. The only place that sort of provides legal force to the spiritual concept of marriage is Mississippi, which has a divorce by consent but not at will divorce, or at least not at will divorce without the sham of establishing domicile in another state first.

[Extendedcab]

The government recognizing same sex legal marriage didn't cheapen marriage. We had already accomplished that, with the support of a lot (a majority?) of Christians by allowing no fault divorces. The only place that sort of provides legal force to the spiritual concept of marriage is Mississippi, which has a divorce by consent but not at will divorce, or at least not at will divorce without the sham of establishing domicile in another state first.

You are proving the point that any deviation away from the "moral law giver" causes humans problems. Marriage was intended, from the beginning by God, to be for life, but Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of human hearts! Divorce for reasons other than infidelity is a sin. Also a gay life style is called an abomination in scripture - it is a sin but the worst kind of sin in God's eyes (read the book of Romans if you want to know more). A gay lifestyle used to be pushed out to the fringes of society but now they want to make it a center piece of society - something to be celebrated - but scripture also says it is a shame to even discuss the things they do must less promote it.

[Johnson85]

You are proving the point that any deviation away from the "moral law giver" causes humans problems. Marriage was intended, from the beginning by God, to be for life, but Moses allowed divorce due to the hardness of human hearts! Divorce for reasons other than infidelity is a sin. Also a gay life style is called an abomination in scripture - it is a sin but the worst kind of sin in God's eyes (read the book of Romans if you want to know more). A gay lifestyle used to be pushed out to the fringes of society but now they want to make it a center piece of society - something to be celebrated - but scripture also says it is a shame to even discuss the things they do must less promote it.

I was trying to make the point that mixing up spiritual matters with the government doesn't purify the government, it corrupts the spiritual matters. There's going to be enough corruption in churches and spiritual communities without the involvement of government. It seems like a better approach might be to hold other christians accountable, and let the law be based primarily on utilitarian grounds, and try not to intermingle spiritual concepts with the government, as long as the government will enforce contracts.

[Extendedcab]

I was trying to make the point that mixing up spiritual matters with the government doesn't purify the government, it corrupts the spiritual matters. There's going to be enough corruption in churches and spiritual communities without the involvement of government. It seems like a better approach might be to hold other christians accountable, and let the law be based primarily on utilitarian grounds, and try not to intermingle spiritual concepts with the government, as long as the government will enforce contracts.

Hmm, If you want a government devoid of Christian principles, then Russia or China or North Korea come to mind. Somehow I don't think you would like those environment. Liberty under law was always rooted in biblical principles and is the basis for the US Constitution. Without the "moral law giver" (God) there is no liberty.

[R2Dawg]

Hmm, If you want a government devoid of Christian principles, then Russia or China or North Korea come to mind. Somehow I don't think you would like those environment. Liberty under law was always rooted in biblical principles and is the basis for the US Constitution. Without the "moral law giver" (God) there is no liberty.

Nailed it.

If we are so bad then why are so many wanting to come here? No one is trying to break into China or Russia or North Korea; wonder why? I've been to Russia crossing the border many times. They have AK47 every 100 yards and triple row fence security to keep people in not people out. We are so ignorant in the US, I didn't really understand freedom until my first visit to Russia.

[R2Dawg]

I was trying to make the point that mixing up spiritual matters with the government doesn't purify the government, it corrupts the spiritual matters. There's going to be enough corruption in churches and spiritual communities without the involvement of government. It seems like a better approach might be to hold other christians accountable, and let the law be based primarily on utilitarian grounds, and try not to intermingle spiritual concepts with the government, as long as the government will enforce contracts.

Tricky proposition. Here is the issue. Man is corrupt. People want to give the gov all this power but power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Our true freedoms come from a Higher Power as our founding documents say we are endowed by our Creator unalienable rights - life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These do no come from government or man but from God. God has ordained gov as the institution to rule but His laws are to be the guiding moral law to rule by. Read the OT and you'll see many of our just original laws come from God.

As we abandon these moral laws you get lawlessness which is what you see all over our culture today. Law of the harvest - reap what you sow, reap more than you sow, reap later than you sow. It started 60-100 years ago in US and now we are reaping the results.

[R2Dawg]

The government recognizing same sex legal marriage didn't cheapen marriage. We had already accomplished that, with the support of a lot (a majority?) of Christians by allowing no fault divorces. The only place that sort of provides legal force to the spiritual concept of marriage is Mississippi, which has a divorce by consent but not at will divorce, or at least not at will divorce without the sham of establishing domicile in another state first.

I didn't say that was the only thing but gay marriage is another level of lower standards. I agree easy divorce also has cheapened marriage but even more importantly it may be the single biggest reason for culture and society breakdown. 50% of children come from single parent homes, part of the reason you see much of the lawlessness and disrespect today.