MLB Players who got a bad rap

[Will James]

Stop it. Please. You are ruining baseball for all of us old folks with all these stats. I'm sick of wars and whips and ops and all this other stat crap. Baseball has been overwhelmed by stat nerds. No offense will james ...real or imaginary.

Only in baseball is more knowledge scoffed at. When you learn it, you love it and appreciate the game more.

[ShotgunDawg]

It does when his D is that much of a liability.

Negative.

If your a GM, would you pay Choo more if he could play CF or LF?

[ShotgunDawg]

This isn't a stat fight. This is a scouting and logic fight, vs a guy that doesn't understand the value of a baseball player.

Will brought a plastic spoon to this gun fight.

[Will James]

Negative.

If your a GM, would you pay Choo more if he could play CF or LF?

Gee why don't the Reds play Joey Votto at catcher or shortstop, he would have much more value there and allow them to pay for a better bat at 1B***

[preachermatt83]

I think drew's consistency was never really appreciated. The guy just got it done day in and day out.

[ShotgunDawg]

Gee why don't the Reds play Joey Votto at catcher or shortstop, he would have much more value there and allow them to pay for a better bat at 1B***

Because he can't play SS or C, but be rest assured that if he could, he would be more valuable and paid even more than he is now.

Its about supply and demand Will.

Are there more 1B or SS that can hit 30 HRs?

If we were picking a Beer league team and you could pick the SS that hit 30 HRs or the 1B that hit 30 HRs, which one would you pick?

I'll take the SS that can hit 30 HR because there is only 1 or 2 people on the planet that can do that.

Likewise, there are probably 10-20 first basemen on the planet that can do that.

Premium position players that can hit are the most valuable.

[Will James]

Because he can't play SS or C, but be rest assured that if he could, he would be more valuable and paid even more than he is now.

Choo can't play CF. This is my point. He is a horrible defensive CF.

[ShotgunDawg]

Choo can't play CF. This is my point. He is a horrible defensive CF.

Thats fine, and I'm not disagreeing with that point, but his value on the trade market or free agent market doesn't go up if he moves to RF or LF. It goes down.

You can always move a CF to LF or RF, but you can't always move a LF or RF to CF. Therefore, CF are a rarer commodity, assuming similar offensive production.

[Will James]

Thats fine, and I'm not disagreeing with that point, but his value on the trade market or free agent market doesn't go up if he moves to RF or LF. It goes down.

If you only look at offense you would be correct. Half of the game is defense though. He is more valuable and his WAR would go UP by moving to LF

[ShotgunDawg]

If you only look at offense you would be correct. Half of the game is defense though. He is more valuable and his WAR would go UP by moving to LF

Disagree, he can always to move to LF. He gets paid more money if he can stay in CF and holds more value on the free agent and trade market.

Plus the average MLB playoff team scores 800 runs. GMs try build teams that are capable of doing this. This is why Billy Bean didn't care about defense in Moneyball. So long as a player is capable of playing a premium position, you keep him there because it allows you to put a better hitter at a non-premium position.

This is why Johnny Peralta and JJ Hardy have stayed at SS for as long as they have. Are they great defensively? No, but they are adequate, and by being adequate and not having to play 3rd, the Tigers were able to put Miguel Cabrera at 3rd and Fielder at 1st.

Peralta more valuable as a SS than 3B.

[Dawg61]

Guys who gives a shit? You're ruining this thread with your titty fight

[ShotgunDawg]

Guys who gives a shit? You're ruining this thread with your titty fight

Don't tell me you would trade a SS for a manager?

[Will James]

Disagree, he can always to move to LF. He gets paid more money if he can stay in CF and holds more value on the free agent and trade market.

Plus the average MLB playoff team scores 800 runs. GMs try build teams that are capable of doing this. This is why Billy Bean didn't care about defense in Moneyball. So long as a player is capable of playing a premium position, you keep him there because it allows you to put a better hitter at a non-premium position.

You aren't getting this. Choo is not able to play that premium position. They are premium because they are important defensively. Players that can actually play those positions an hit are great. There is a reason Votto is not a shortstop. The myth of Moneyball and sabermetrics is to ignore defense. The Rays shift more than ANYBODY. Earl Weaver was "pitching, DEFENSE, and the 3 run homer".

Billy Beane cared less about 1B defense than others because its a low premium defensive spot. Ortiz is playing there in a World Series. Papi ain't playing SS.

[ShotgunDawg]

You aren't getting this. Choo is not able to play that premium position. They are premium because they are important defensively. Players that can actually play those positions an hit are great. There is a reason Votto is not a shortstop. The myth of Moneyball and sabermetrics is to ignore defense. The Rays shift more than ANYBODY. Earl Weaver was "pitching, DEFENSE, and the 3 run homer".

Billy Beane cared less about 1B defense than others because its a low premium defensive spot. Ortiz is playing there in a World Series. Papi ain't playing SS.

And LF and RF are lower defensive spots than CF.

I'm not arguing that Choo shouldn't move to a corner OF position if he can't play CF. I am just simply, without a doubt in my mind, making the statement that Choo's monetary and trade value will drop the moment he moves from CF to a corner OF position because the team he plays for can more easily replace his bat at a corner OF position than they could if he was still able to play CF.

[Bo Darville]

If Choo was having eye problems, and the manager, player, and doctor were all saying that he can't see the freaking baseball, would you play him in left or center?

[ShotgunDawg]

If Choo was having eye problems, and the manager, player, and doctor were all saying that he can't see the freaking baseball, would you play him in left or center?

He would then play Left Out

[smootness]

Look, first of all, Will was talking about his value to the Reds, not his value on the FA market. And his value to the Reds is higher if he's causing fewer runs to score because of his bad defense. And his value on the FA market would be as a corner OF anyway because teams know he isn't actually a CF.

You think that if Freddie Freeman played CF for the Braves, his value on the FA market would be higher? It wouldn't, because teams would know they're moving him to 1B. They don't just say, 'Oh you played CF for the Braves? Well, even though you had 96 errors and a dWAR of -55, we have to pay you more because that's the position you played.'

[Will James]

Look, first of all, Will was talking about his value to the Reds, not his value on the FA market. And his value to the Reds is higher if he's causing fewer runs to score because of his bad defense. And his value on the FA market would be as a corner OF anyway because teams know he isn't actually a CF.

You think that if Freddie Freeman played CF for the Braves, his value on the FA market would be higher? It wouldn't, because teams would know they're moving him to 1B. They don't just say, 'Oh you played CF for the Braves? Well, even though you had 96 errors and a dWAR of -55, we have to pay you more because that's the position you played.'

+1

[Tbonewannabe]

Play him at 2nd. Uggla agrees with this.

[messageboardsuperhero]

Here's another question regarding Choo: Was his 2013 season as a leadoff hitter as good as Ichiro's best seasons as a leadoff hitter?

I would say yes, and maybe even better. Choo had a higher OBP and more XBH this year than Ichiro ever had in any one season in his prime.

I still can't believe Choo didn't make the AS Game.