On basketball improvement...

[engie]

I wouldn't be mad if we hired a new coach this year. I'm nowhere near sold ray can get us where we need to be. I just don't think there's any way we fire Ray, so I'm trying to keep an open mind and hope for the best

Exactly. The upside of firing him immediately is the probability of(at least short term) renewed fan support, assuming we got off our asses and got someone that everyone could be excited about.

I still think 3 years is too quick of trigger in basketball for a school in our position to get and retain a desirable coach unless we overpay bigtime -- especially with the moderate improvement that has been shown, which was really the worst case scenario IMO as far as the fanbase goes. Especially when one year was a definite throw away and you could argue that 2 were at least partial throw aways. So, he's really had 1.5 years here, and Stricklin is prettymuch calling it one year.

I agree with D61 -- our seniors-to-be "are what they are" which is talented(but not well rounded) athletes without alot of basketball savvy that are prone to mental lapses and have not shown any semblance of consistent mental toughness. I don't know if what we see from them is what Ray teaches or not -- I do know that he comes off as basketball intelligent when he speaks about stuff at length. He notices the same issues we do. It could be argued that he should have fixed them quicker or done a better job evaluating and recruiting, and I'd tentatively agree. Tentatively because it seems we were very toxic on the recruiting trail for his first couple of years and it took Ray awhile to figure out and build his newtork here. Let's not forget -- his predecessor didn't find immediate success here, and he'd built his network at MSU for 9 years prior to getting the job.

Ray's fate still lies with Malik to an extent. I realize everyone is saying we don't have a chance -- but I won't buy in to all of that until he's signed elsewhere. That's the quickest way to win back the fanbase and get extended here. That opens the door to Kegler at least to an extent. Get one of those two -- and your back to recruiting on peak Stansbury levels here. Malik takes our mid 40s 2015 class and turns it into a top 25 2015 class.

[codeDawg]

I still think 3 years is too quick of trigger in basketball for a school in our position to get and retain a desirable coach unless we overpay bigtime -- especially with the moderate improvement that has been shown, which was really the worst case scenario IMO as far as the fanbase goes. Especially when one year was a definite throw away and you could argue that 2 were at least partial throw aways. So, he's really had 1.5 years here, and Stricklin is prettymuch calling it one year.

I would agree with you if the offense wasn't so atrociously awful, and not improving year 2 to year 3. We are #291/345 in scoring offense out of all DI basketball including SWAC and other irrelevant conferences. Last year we finished #259, so you could say we are regressing (tonight isn't going to help). If we were say, #175 having pulled it up from #200, I could say, well, we're just not that talented and we've put a few things in place to help out. That's not the case though. With an experienced team we are still worse on the offensive side of the ball than any other team in the SEC besides Missouri. They are having an awful year, but at least are in the first year of a new coach who has won a NC at a DII school.

These kids either aren't being taught effectively, or don't want to listen to Ray. In either case, that's on him. He gets props for stepping up the defense this year, but I can teach my dog to chase people and try to get the ball. I refuse to believe that we are #291 out of 345 in scoring offense because these kids are just so bad at basketball.

[RougeDawg]

So are We to the point with our basketball program where we should be happy and satisfied being the third or forth tallest midget? Every improvement you list is marginal at best and result of guys having 2-3.5 years of experience under their belts. And from where we were there was only one direction for us to go, unless we pulled the plug on men's basketball altogether. To most of us using logic and not tying to fit our "hopes and dreams" into reality, the improvement is a product of experience. Just like a burger flipper at McDonald's. At first he will struggle with the trade. After 3 years of doing the same thing there will be marginal improvement simply from repetitive action. But he will still be a burger flipper. What's next? Are you going to start looking into hot dog and pretzel sales during Rays tenure in an attempt to show how we are better off now with him at the helm? Just stop trying to defend our horrendous program. It's really getting old seeing these threads putting so much effort into trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Just stop it already.

[thunderclap]

Someone told me that Stricklin's next door neighbor was Rick Ray. Is that true? Needless to say, that could make it uncomfortable.

I'm surprised he doesn't live with them.

[RougeDawg]

I would agree with you if the offense wasn't so atrociously awful, and not improving year 2 to year 3. We are #291/345 in scoring offense out of all DI basketball including SWAC and other irrelevant conferences. Last year we finished #259, so you could say we are regressing (tonight isn't going to help). If we were say, #175 having pulled it up from #200, I could say, well, we're just not that talented and we've put a few things in place to help out. That's not the case though. With an experienced team we are still worse on the offensive side of the ball than any other team in the SEC besides Missouri. They are having an awful year, but at least are in the first year of a new coach who has won a NC at a DII school.

These kids either aren't being taught effectively, or don't want to listen to Ray. In either case, that's on him. He gets props for stepping up the defense this year, but I can teach my dog to chase people and try to get the ball. I refuse to believe that we are #291 out of 345 in scoring offense because these kids are just so bad at basketball.

Wait you can't see how great ray is???*** Our revenue has been stagnant during his tenure while expenses have doubled. Haven't you seen the numbers? Our previous cosch never made this much revenue. Good thing these "revenue" guys aren't responsible for any business decisions or that business would be up Sh*t creek .

[msstate7]

Wait you can't see how great ray is???*** Our revenue has been stagnant during his tenure while expenses have doubled. Haven't you seen the numbers? Our previous cosch never made this much revenue. Good thing these "revenue" guys aren't responsible for any business decisions or that business would be up Sh*t creek .

If you can't see there's improvement, you just can't look at it objectively. Are we close to being great? No, but we're close to being good. We're a player or 2 away imo. If ready and sword hadn't started the year hurt, zuppardo hadnt blown a knee, and staley played, we're in the nit no doubt. Injurues are part of it though. We just aren't talented enough to absorb injuries. Our talent level will be better next season though...

I've heard more than a few times that if cox hadnt gotten kicked off and market hadn't gotten hurt, we'd have won against OM. Why is that excuse valid for football (85 man roster), but not for basketball (13 man roster)?

[engie]

Does it not stand to reason that a very good/much improved defense is a significant contributing factor for less offense? Deeper shot clock -- fewer possessions -- fewer points. I don't have a premium kenpom subscription to verify it -- but I believe it will show that our offensive efficiency is about the same as last year. Which is, by no means, good enough -- but I sincerely doubt the dropoff that the PPG snapshot would project...

[engie]

Wait you can't see how great ray is???*** Our revenue has been stagnant during his tenure while expenses have doubled. Haven't you seen the numbers? Our previous cosch never made this much revenue. Good thing these "revenue" guys aren't responsible for any business decisions or that business would be up Sh*t creek .

I've never seen anyone circle back to a position after being owned to the extent that you were on this one. You never cease to amaze...

[RougeDawg]

If you can't see there's improvement, you just can't look at it objectively. Are we close to being great? No, but we're close to being good. We're a player or 2 away imo. If ready and sword hadn't started the year hurt, zuppardo hadnt blown a knee, and staley played, we're in the nit no doubt. Injurues are part of it though. We just aren't talented enough to absorb injuries. Our talent level will be better next season though...

I've heard more than a few times that if cox hadnt gotten kicked off and market hadn't gotten hurt, we'd have won against OM. Why is that excuse valid for football (85 man roster), but not for basketball (13 man roster)?

All these IFS. I'm basing everything on ACTUAL results. Not what may have or could have been. If I had won the lottery i could have done a lot of different things myself but guess what, i haven't.

[RougeDawg]

Double Post

[RougeDawg]

Holy.Shit.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that you are this dense. No way. I've never seen anyone come back to a position after being publicly proven an idiot.

Proven wrong?? How is the common knowledge that inflation is a fact of economics? Also it is a known fact that energy costs (IE electricity to heat, cool and light the hump and practice facility, gas for plane and bus rides, and higher costs for every good that uses transportation for distribution has gone up since our last coach) has gone up dramatically over the last 4-5 years, while our revenue has been stagnant. But we are supposed to believe that we are better off economically now than before. Have you ever heard of profit, margins, and what percent margins a business must maintain to stay in business?

I'm dumb it down for you. If your costs go up incrementally year after year, but your overall income remanins stagnant, your profit margins shrink incrementally. I used your revenue stats and applied them in real life terms. So by your numbers our men's BBall "Profit Margin" is shrinking under Ray. Please elaborate with your inquisite business skills how this can be viewed as something positive? Unless we are getting our electricity donated there's no way we are clearing more now than 4 years ago if your revenue numbers are correct.

What business economics are you using if you believe we are better off economicallyNow?

[engie]

Proven wrong?? How is the common knowledge that inflation is a fact of economics? Also it is a known fact that energy costs (IE electricity to heat, cool and light the hump and practice facility, gas for plane and bus rides, and higher costs for every good that uses transportation for distribution has gone up since our last coach) has gone up dramatically over the last 4-5 years, while our revenue has been stagnant. But we are supposed to believe that we are better off economically now than before. Have you ever heard of profit, margins, and what percent margins a business must maintain to stay in business?

You didn't even read the other thread you "cleverly" made a personal attack about me after midnight on a Friday night did you? This is still psychobabble. Expenses are reported, in detail, exactly how revenue is.

I'm dumb it down for you. If your costs go up incrementally year after year, but your overall income remanins stagnant, your profit margins shrink incrementally. I used your revenue stats and applied them in real life terms. So by your numbers our men's BBall "Profit Margin" is shrinking under Ray. Please elaborate with your inquisite business skills how this can be viewed as something positive? Unless we are getting our electricity donated there's no way we are clearing more now than 4 years ago if your revenue numbers are correct.

Yep -- still herp derping with that foot in your mouth.

What business economics are you using if you believe we are better off economicallyNow?

The business economics of "reading and understanding official federal income tax data from Mississippi State -- which include detailed revenue and expense reports".

In other words -- this isn't even economics. Economics is factored into the accounting. This is simple arithmetic and reading comprehension. 2 things you lack in great abundance. Economics. Lmao.

[codeDawg]

Does it not stand to reason that a very good/much improved defense is a significant contributing factor for less offense? Deeper shot clock -- fewer possessions -- fewer points. I don't have a premium kenpom subscription to verify it -- but I believe it will show that our offensive efficiency is about the same as last year. Which is, by no means, good enough -- but I sincerely doubt the dropoff that the PPG snapshot would project...

Slightly improved offensive efficiency year over year from 260 to 240. We went from the 25th percentile to the 31st. We're in the back of the pack in the SEC on offensive efficiency with Missouri coming up next at 185. Offense is just horrid.

Teams ranked worse than us in offensive efficiency in the past 14 years (note that Ray's first year was the worst in the SEC in this period):

MSU - 2014 (260)
Texas A&M - 2013 (276)
MSU - 2013 (326)
Auburn - 2013 (252)
Auburn - 2011 (284)
LSU - 2011 (307)
LSU - 2010 (249)
Georgia - 2009 (281)
Georgia - 2005 (299)
Arkansas - 2003 (250)
Auburn - 2002 (262)

[engie]

Slightly improved offensive efficiency year over year from 260 to 240. We went from the 25th percentile to the 31st. We're in the back of the pack in the SEC on offensive efficiency with Missouri coming up next at 185. Offense is just horrid.

Teams ranked worse than us in offensive efficiency in the past 14 years (note that Ray's first year was the worst in the SEC in this period):

MSU - 2014 (260)
Texas A&M - 2013 (276)
MSU - 2013 (326)
Auburn - 2013 (252)
Auburn - 2011 (284)
LSU - 2011 (307)
LSU - 2010 (249)
Georgia - 2009 (281)
Georgia - 2005 (299)
Arkansas - 2003 (250)
Auburn - 2002 (262)

That's some good data. Which is about what I thought. Slight improvement on offense, big improvement on defense. If we could flip that script next year with just a slight defensive improvement and a big offensive improvement, we can be where we need to be. I think Zuppardo is going to give us a boost on that end and some of the freshmen may as well at least somewhat...

[dawgs]

That's some good data. Which is about what I thought. Slight improvement on offense, big improvement on defense. If we could flip that script next year with just a slight defensive improvement and a big offensive improvement, we can be where we need to be. I think Zuppardo is going to give us a boost on that end and some of the freshmen may as well at least somewhat...

We are still only 113th in adjusted D, so still well below ncaa tourney quality. We need big improvement on D and an astronomical improvement on O.

[dawgs]

I wouldn't be mad if we hired a new coach this year. I'm nowhere near sold ray can get us where we need to be. I just don't think there's any way we fire Ray, so I'm trying to keep an open mind and hope for the best

Just because he's apparently gonna get another year doesn't make it right. Raise enough hell and maybe something can be done this year. If he's here next year, I hope we go undefeated, but that doesn't mean I can't voice my displeasure with were we are right now in his tenure, which is significantly off from where we expected to be in the W & L columns.

[engie]

We are still only 113th in adjusted D, so still well below ncaa tourney quality. We need big improvement on D and an astronomical improvement on O.

Largely related to our average of 15 turnovers per game.

This is absolutely a tournament-level defensive team that's prettymuch elite on that side other than point guard position...

[dawgs]

If you can't see there's improvement, you just can't look at it objectively. Are we close to being great? No, but we're close to being good. We're a player or 2 away imo. If ready and sword hadn't started the year hurt, zuppardo hadnt blown a knee, and staley played, we're in the nit no doubt. Injurues are part of it though. We just aren't talented enough to absorb injuries. Our talent level will be better next season though...

I've heard more than a few times that if cox hadnt gotten kicked off and market hadn't gotten hurt, we'd have won against OM. Why is that excuse valid for football (85 man roster), but not for basketball (13 man roster)?

Well I haven't seen anyone claim we would've beaten OM with cox and market. But if we're playing that comparison, the football team win 10 of their 11 other regular season games and didn't lose to the equivalent of sc-upstate multiple times.

[dawgs]

Largely related to our average of 15 turnovers per game.

This is absolutely a tournament-level defensive team that's prettymuch elite on that side other than point guard position...

"Elite"? Maybe you can argue we have a ncaa tourney caliber D but it ain't close to elite.

And I'm pretty sure things like TOs are factored into the adjusted D.

[codeDawg]

That's some good data. Which is about what I thought. Slight improvement on offense, big improvement on defense. If we could flip that script next year with just a slight defensive improvement and a big offensive improvement, we can be where we need to be. I think Zuppardo is going to give us a boost on that end and some of the freshmen may as well at least somewhat...

While that would be my hope, I think we are more likely to see more talented kids that still haven't been taught to run a half-court set, get open, and take high percentage shots (and pass, and dribble, and inbound...). I think the writing is on the wall with this one. Nobody in the conference is this bad in offense and recovers.

Look at the past teams with offenses so constantly bad. LSU under Trent Johnson started with an SEC championship, and a first round win in the NCAA tourney. He then went 11-20 twice (2-14, 3-13 SEC) before making it back into the NIT (7-9 SEC), which was not good enough. He went to TCU where he has stunk it up with awful offense until this year where his is still 3-11 in the conference.

Tony Barbee coached 2010 to 2014. He finished his career at 48-75, the lowest winning percentage of any coach ever at Auburn with more than 2 years there.

That Texas A&M team (should be 2014 above) payed outstanding defense (ranked 33) to go with crappy offense, and the offense recovered.

History is not on Ray's side.