MSU is STILL Not Serious About Football

[msstate7]

Arnett is a hell of a DC. Hell, when we were getting 3 yard passes on offense, his defense was winning games.

[Quaoarsking]

Arnett is a hell of a DC. Hell, when we were getting 3 yard passes on offense, his defense was winning games.

I just reviewed the 11 SEC games we won under Leach and couldn't find a single example of a time where the offense was bad and the defense won the game for us.

There were examples where the offense and defense were both pretty good (not taking anything away from Arnett) and 1 game where they were both bad and we somehow won anyway (2020 Vanderbilt), but I don't think your description of "Arnett's defense winning games for Leach" stands up to scrutiny.

[msstate7]

I just reviewed the 11 SEC games we won under Leach and couldn't find a single example of a time where the offense was bad and the defense won the game for us.

There were examples where the offense and defense were both pretty good (not taking anything away from Arnett) and 1 game where they were both bad and we somehow won anyway (2020 Vanderbilt), but I don't think your description of "Arnett's defense winning games for Leach" stands up to scrutiny.

I don't even care enough to look, but did offense ever score more than def allowed during leach tenure? Sec ranks?

[DownwardDawg]

I just reviewed the 11 SEC games we won under Leach and couldn't find a single example of a time where the offense was bad and the defense won the game for us.

There were examples where the offense and defense were both pretty good (not taking anything away from Arnett) and 1 game where they were both bad and we somehow won anyway (2020 Vanderbilt), but I don't think your description of "Arnett's defense winning games for Leach" stands up to scrutiny.

Hell, right off the top of my head I can name one. The last game Leach coached. The Egg Bowl. The defense kept kiffins offense in check most of the game. The offense had opportunities to put the game away and couldn't seal the deal. Offense handed ole miss the ball and said here ya go. Defense stopped them for the win.

There were multiple games that the defense kept it close enough despite the offense not being able to do shit. Then the offense scored just enough to win. Only because the defense kept the score low and close.

[Quaoarsking]

Let's see if this formats correctly:

• Offensive Yards
• Offensive TDs
• Defensive Yards Allowed
• Defensive TDs Allowed
• Defensive TDs Scored

632 5 425 4 0 2020 LSU 44-34
208 3 478 2 0 2020 Vanderbilt 24-17
446 4 342 4 2 2020 Missouri 51-32
438 3 297 2 0 2021 Texas A&M 26-22
522 6 155 0 0 2021 Vanderbilt 45-6
438 4 216 1 0 2021 Kentucky 31-17
487 6 483 5 0 2021 Auburn 43-34
473 4 388 3 1 2022 Texas A&M 42-24
568 6 483 2 0 2022 Arkansas 40-17
370 4 331 4 0 2022 Auburn 39-33
336 3 335 3 0 2022 Ole Miss 24-22

These are the 11 SEC wins in the Leach Era. There isn't a good example of the offense sucking and the defense bailing us out for the win. In 8 of the 11 wins, we had at least 400 yards and 3 TDs, so even when the defense played well too, you can't say they bailed us out.

• The last 2 games, 2022 wins over Auburn and Ole Miss, seem really similar on paper, which is interesting because they don't seem that way in my memory. I remember thinking the offense and defense were both flat against Auburn and that they both played pretty well against Ole Miss (except when Will Rogers tried to run it in himself and failed).
• They were both awful against Vanderbilt in 2020 and we were incredibly lucky to win.

None of this is intended as a knock on Arnett. He did well as Leach's DC. I'm just defending Leach's offense.

[R2Dawg]

Let's see if this formats correctly:

• Offensive Yards
• Offensive TDs
• Defensive Yards Allowed
• Defensive TDs Allowed
• Defensive TDs Scored

632 5 425 4 0 2020 LSU 44-34
208 3 478 2 0 2020 Vanderbilt 24-17
446 4 342 4 2 2020 Missouri 51-32
438 3 297 2 0 2021 Texas A&M 26-22
522 6 155 0 0 2021 Vanderbilt 45-6
438 4 216 1 0 2021 Kentucky 31-17
487 6 483 5 0 2021 Auburn 43-34
473 4 388 3 1 2022 Texas A&M 42-24
568 6 483 2 0 2022 Arkansas 40-17
370 4 331 4 0 2022 Auburn 39-33
336 3 335 3 0 2022 Ole Miss 42-22

These are the 11 SEC wins in the Leach Era. There isn't a good example of the offense sucking and the defense bailing us out for the win. In 8 of the 11 wins, we had at least 400 yards and 3 TDs, so even when the defense played well too, you can't say they bailed us out.

• The last 2 games, 2022 wins over Auburn and Ole Miss, seem really similar on paper, which is interesting because they don't seem that way in my memory. I remember thinking the offense and defense were both flat against Auburn and that they both played pretty well against Ole Miss (except when Will Rogers tried to run it in himself and failed).
• They were both awful against Vanderbilt in 2020 and we were incredibly lucky to win.

None of this is intended as a knock on Arnett. He did well as Leach's DC. I'm just defending Leach's offense.

Kinda hard to compare O and D in isolation. It takes both to win. The big Aub comeback win the O and D were not good in first half. Reverse in second. If D doesn't step up, we lose. If O doesn't produce we lose.
ae
Our D was bend don't break a lot. They gave up yards but stiffened up in the red zone. Also in today's O world, I think holding a team to 300-400 would be average vs 35-40 years ago.

[R2Dawg]

Hell, right off the top of my head I can name one. The last game Leach coached. The Egg Bowl. The defense kept kiffins offense in check most of the game. The offense had opportunities to put the game away and couldn't seal the deal. Offense handed ole miss the ball and said here ya go. Defense stopped them for the win.

There were multiple games that the defense kept it close enough despite the offense not being able to do shit. Then the offense scored just enough to win. Only because the defense kept the score low and close.

Yep and a lot of games (lot of losses) where D played their tails off but got tired for being on field all the time because O couldn't get a first down. Then in garbage time the O put up points and yards on the 2nd and 3rd team. This happened almost every loss. Those don't show up in just run the numbers. Our O was terrible in almost half the games.

[Homedawg]

Let's see if this formats correctly:

• Offensive Yards
• Offensive TDs
• Defensive Yards Allowed
• Defensive TDs Allowed
• Defensive TDs Scored

632 5 425 4 0 2020 LSU 44-34
208 3 478 2 0 2020 Vanderbilt 24-17
446 4 342 4 2 2020 Missouri 51-32
438 3 297 2 0 2021 Texas A&M 26-22
522 6 155 0 0 2021 Vanderbilt 45-6
438 4 216 1 0 2021 Kentucky 31-17
487 6 483 5 0 2021 Auburn 43-34
473 4 388 3 1 2022 Texas A&M 42-24
568 6 483 2 0 2022 Arkansas 40-17
370 4 331 4 0 2022 Auburn 39-33
336 3 335 3 0 2022 Ole Miss 42-22

These are the 11 SEC wins in the Leach Era. There isn't a good example of the offense sucking and the defense bailing us out for the win. In 8 of the 11 wins, we had at least 400 yards and 3 TDs, so even when the defense played well too, you can't say they bailed us out.

• The last 2 games, 2022 wins over Auburn and Ole Miss, seem really similar on paper, which is interesting because they don't seem that way in my memory. I remember thinking the offense and defense were both flat against Auburn and that they both played pretty well against Ole Miss (except when Will Rogers tried to run it in himself and failed).
• They were both awful against Vanderbilt in 2020 and we were incredibly lucky to win.

None of this is intended as a knock on Arnett. He did well as Leach's DC. I'm just defending Leach's offense.

Egg bowl 22 you have the score wrong and if you don't include turnovers both way it's not valid. Bc the ole miss game of 22 the offense kept giving the ball away and the defense kept stopping them. Might work out even. But that's important.

[Quaoarsking]

Egg bowl 22 you have the score wrong and if you don't include turnovers both way it's not valid. Bc the ole miss game of 22 the offense kept giving the ball away and the defense kept stopping them. Might work out even. But that's important.

Fixed the Egg Bowl score, which I transposed.

Anyway, I'll reiterate my purpose isn't to argue that the offense is the reason we won those games or to bash Arnett, it's merely to demonstrate that "Hell, when we were getting 3 yard passes on offense, his defense was winning games." is not an accurate description of the Leach Era.

[Todd4State]

Ah the 2022 Egg Bowl where the defense gave up a 99 yard TD drive to end the game but they get credit for winning the game. Thanks Randy Charlton.

[Todd4State]

I just reviewed the 11 SEC games we won under Leach and couldn't find a single example of a time where the offense was bad and the defense won the game for us.

There were examples where the offense and defense were both pretty good (not taking anything away from Arnett) and 1 game where they were both bad and we somehow won anyway (2020 Vanderbilt), but I don't think your description of "Arnett's defense winning games for Leach" stands up to scrutiny.

It doesn't stand up to scrutiny. But Arnett wears cowboy boots, cusses, and has a farm so MSU fans like him.

I remember the Georgia game in 2020 where we had a lead with an extremely outmanned team and Mr bail Leach out zero blitzed and got burned costing us the game and what would have been a historic win for MSU. So he probably lost about as many as he "saved" for us.

Your research points out why I think he is overrated though. I always felt that way about him even before Leach passed away. Now, he wasn't bad but he wasn't Joe Lee Dunn good either.

Truth is Leach really wanted Rocky Long and the two of them together would have been special. Long wanted to stay out west and retire and Long suggested Leach hire Arnett.

[KOdawg1]

If we had hired a different coach to replace Leach, the Air Raid club wouldn't hate Arnett like they do.

Arnett the DC is good. Arnett the HC obviously was not. It takes a certain level of common sense and reasoning to comprehend that, but I guess some can't do it.

[Todd4State]

If we had hired a different coach to replace Leach, the Air Raid club wouldn't hate Arnett like they do.

Arnett the DC is good. Arnett the HC obviously was not. It takes a certain level of common sense and reasoning to comprehend that, but I guess some can't do it.

Because it's the same person.

It's like saying Charles Manson the cult leader was bad but as a car salesman he was good. And yeah that's an extreme example but I couldn't think of a great analogy.

[msstate7]

Because it's the same person.

It's like saying Charles Manson the cult leader was bad but as a car salesman he was good. And yeah that's an extreme example but I couldn't think of a great analogy.

There are countless examples of failed head coaches in all levels of football that return to being successful coods.

[KOdawg1]

Because it's the same person.

It's like saying Charles Manson the cult leader was bad but as a car salesman he was good. And yeah that's an extreme example but I couldn't think of a great analogy.

But he's not doing the same job.

It's getting childish on your part. Let it go.

And you're right, that was a stupid analogy.

[Tater]

Arnett was a solid DC here when he had an offense that ball controlled and protected the D way better than most realized here. We have a tendency to think "run = ball control" and "pass = not" but that's just not true in today's modern football.

Leach was pass heavy and controlled TOP. In 22 we had a 26% rushing rate and a 7th ranked time of possession.

Lebby is run heavy - 55% last year yet 131st in TOP.

Arnett is going from being more protected to less protected by his offense here. Too many people think it's the other way around.

[Pancho]

Too many 3 and outs will doom the D over an entire game

[MBDawg601]

If we had known all of these things ahead of time, everyone would have picked us to win 7 or 8 games:

• Arizona State is not an elite team - they will finish unranked with no votes.
• Tennessee is not an elite team - they will finish unranked with no votes.
• Florida is not a good team at all - they will finish 4-8.
• Texas is not an elite team - they will finish ranked, but not in the playoffs and nowhere close to their #1 ranking preseason. They, and in particular Arch, will underachieve all season.
• Arkansas is not on the upswing with Petrino as OC. In fact they will finish 2-10.
• Missouri is not a good team - they will finish unranked (but with a few votes)
• Northern Illinois is actually one of the worst teams in the MAC, not a contender - I probably shouldn't include this because we should beat any MAC team anyway, but we all came into 2025 remembering what the MAC did to us in 2024....

Sorry to rehash arguments from 2 months ago, but our schedule was so much easier than we all thought it would be, and we failed to seize the opportunity that presented. I wonder what we'll be like in a year where we get really unlucky with the schedule.

In that same sense you could say that the SEC as a whole, was not as good as projected. Those teams still have A LOT more talent than we do. We are still in rebuild mode and getting transfers to come in is going to cost a lot more than we have been willing to spend, apparently.

Don?t get me wrong, I think Lebby is in way over his head and will be fired at the end of this come season. I think that would have been the case with 99% of football coaches though, given our situation and how far behind on the NIL game we are.

The only coach we could have hired that would have better results would be Cignetti.

[Quaoarsking]

I can think of 3 big reasons to think Arnett 2.0 at DC might not be as good as Arnett 1.0:

• When Arnett was last DC, Leach was the head coach and had really high standards for conditioning and discipline. Arnett didn't have to set those standards when Leach was setting them. Arnett didn't set as high of a standard as HC, and neither has Lebby, so who is going to setting them in 2026? I'm sure Arnett's scheming will still be good, but I am concerned that he won't get as much out of his players without a HC who is setting the table for him like Leach did.
• Arnett is returning to a job that fired him (in an extremely embarrassing way - it's unheard of for a HC to not even get a full season before losing his job for on-field performance) to work for the guy who replaced him and hasn't been any better. There's just no way there's no resentment there. Maybe Arnett is professional enough that it won't make any difference, but that's going to be really hard for anyone in that situation. Now imagine that we start out 2-3 or even 1-4. You know Arnett's going to be thinking "wow, this got me fired in year 1, and this joker's still here in year 3??"
• The incident in Las Vegas raises questions about his mental health and stability. Although it's been, what, a year without any relapse? It will probably be OK, but I can't blame anyone for seeing a red flag there.

Maybe Arnett overcomes all 3 of these obstacles and it's all fine. But you can't just act like it's a given that our defense will automatically return to 2020-22 levels without acknowledging there are different circumstances.

[Quaoarsking]

Don?t get me wrong, I think Lebby is in way over his head and will be fired at the end of this come season. I think that would have been the case with 99% of football coaches though, given our situation and how far behind on the NIL game we are.

The only coach we could have hired that would have better results would be Cignetti.

Disagree. An average head coach doesn't get blown out by Toledo. An average head coach at least splits the Florida and Texas games this past year. A good head coach beats them both and also Tennessee.

If we'd hired someone like Jimbo Fisher, or just any proven G5 head coach, he might never take us to the playoffs, but he wouldn't be blowing wins like Lebby has.

I reject the notion that we'd so hopelessly behind in football, that it was actually good for Lebby that he got us in position to have his coaching blow games, because most coaches would have just gotten blown out every game.