Braves opening day

[Dawg61]

2 year window without making a World Series yet = complete bust. Ok got it.

And I think you are projecting this "think they are the Yankees" shit.

As for "elite" players, who are the braves and the phillies elite players?

Didn't say the Nats were/are a bust. Just overrated because their fans are a bunch of blowhards. You're proving my point.

[dawgs]

You've obviously never watched the braves. Simmons is elite even if he hits .200. His defense is that good.

no he's an elite DEFENSIVE player, but he's not an elite all around player until he's more of an offensive threat. understand the difference.

[dawgs]

Didn't say the Nats were/are a bust. Just overrated because their fans are a bunch of blowhards. You're proving my point.

what am i being a blowhard about? it's just absolutely ****ing baffling to me that you picked the phillies to give the braves a run so i asked why. you said the nats are overrated then gave a bunch of "justifications" that show complete bias and defy logic because it all also applies to the braves and absolutely applies to the phillies. i love talking baseball, because it's the most logical of all game imo, and over 162 games, the odds usually play out such that the better teams end up with the better records.

[Dawg61]

what am i being a blowhard about? it's just absolutely ****ing baffling to me that you picked the phillies to give the braves a run so i asked why. you said the nats are overrated then gave a bunch of "justifications" that show complete bias and defy logic because it all also applies to the braves and absolutely applies to the phillies. i love talking baseball, because it's the most logical of all game imo, and over 162 games, the odds usually play out such that the better teams end up with the better records.

I'm not a Braves fan. Exact opposite actually. I picked the Phillies because they have a new manager and I can see them having fresh life so to speak from that. They aren't that far gone from the team that won five East titles in a row and a World Series are they? They looked pretty good yesterday. So did the Marlins. Much better lineup Miami put on the field last night.

[Political Hack]

Cliff looked pretty rough in the opener yesterday although in sure he'll settle down.

[msstate7]

no he's an elite DEFENSIVE player, but he's not an elite all around player until he's more of an offensive threat. understand the difference.

Well then Miguel Cabrera isn't elite either by your definition.

Personally I think if you're the best at what you do in mlb then you're elite

[dawgs]

I'm not a Braves fan. Exact opposite actually. I picked the Phillies because they have a new manager and I can see them having fresh life so to speak from that. They aren't that far gone from the team that won five East titles in a row and a World Series are they? They looked pretty good yesterday. So did the Marlins. Much better lineup Miami put on the field last night.

cliff lee got knocked around. and better on a team with 5 regulars over the age of 34 in the post-steroid era is foolish. utley, howard, byrd, rollins, and ruiz...not who i want to be relying on for the core of my lineup. then you have lee and burnett who are both getting up there in age, and hamels already hurt. i just don't see it. maybe they all stay healthy and they make a run at .500, but for now they are merely delaying the need to rebuild by trading these vets to contenders (1 or 2 old guys can help a team, but a roster full is suicide) and bottoming out to rack up high draft picks. phillies last made a run in 2011, which doesn't seem that long ago except you factor in a bunch of 31 year olds at the end of their prime are now 34+ and well past it. there's no room for growth and a lot of room for continued regression due to age and health.

[dawgs]

Well then Miguel Cabrera isn't elite either by your definition.

Personally I think if you're the best at what you do in mlb then you're elite

relatively to the average player, cabrera's bat is much more elite than simmons' D though. enough so that carbera had a 3.0 WAR lead on simmons last year.

[Political Hack]

cliff lee got knocked around. and better on a team with 5 regulars over the age of 34 in the post-steroid era is foolish. utley, howard, byrd, rollins, and ruiz...not who i want to be relying on for the core of my lineup. then you have lee and burnett who are both getting up there in age, and hamels already hurt. i just don't see it. maybe they all stay healthy and they make a run at .500, but for now they are merely delaying the need to rebuild by trading these vets to contenders (1 or 2 old guys can help a team, but a roster full is suicide) and bottoming out to rack up high draft picks. phillies last made a run in 2011, which doesn't seem that long ago except you factor in a bunch of 31 year olds at the end of their prime are now 34+ and well past it. there's no room for growth and a lot of room for continued regression due to age and health.

to be fair, age isn't everything. MLB network said the Yankees were the most impressive team in the spring, and they're all old. I got ripped for suggesting that they won't absolutely and unconditionally suck (even though I hope they do).

also, if the season doesn't go as planned, they could unload at the end of the year to set themselves up for the future. It's a crap shoot regardless. This method gives you an insurance plan to cash in on a few old players.

[dawgs]

to be fair, age isn't everything. MLB network said the Yankees were the most impressive team in the spring, and they're all old. I got ripped for suggesting that they won't absolutely and unconditionally suck (even though I hope they do).

meh, they won't be terrible, but they won't make the playoffs and they aren't getting younger, so they are moving further and further from making the playoffs and merely delaying the inevitable rebuilding process. and of course older players might look impressive in spring training, they've been doing it for years AND they are going to be healthier in march than in august. age isn't everything, there's always an exception (as this board is quick to point out), but in the last decade the number of guys that have stayed healthy and productive into their mid and late 30s has dropped tremendously. coincidentally it corresponded to a bigger crackdown on PEDs.

[shoeless joe]

Name a team that wouldn't take Simmons rite now. There may be a couple but the vast majority would take him in a heart beat. His defense is elite...if his offense picks up only slightly he will be the best all around SS in the game. He is at a position where D far outweighs offense.

Freeman is elite rite now. Other than Cabrera and Davis he is the best 1b in the game. And an argument could be made that he's #2 behind Cabrera.

The braves have a lot of areas that some one could point to as evidence for a down year but 1B and SS are not one of them.

[dawgs]

Name a team that wouldn't take Simmons rite now. There may be a couple but the vast majority would take him in a heart beat. His defense is elite...if his offense picks up only slightly he will be the best all around SS in the game. He is at a position where D far outweighs offense.

Freeman is elite rite now. Other than Cabrera and Davis he is the best 1b in the game. And an argument could be made that he's #2 behind Cabrera.

The braves have a lot of areas that some one could point to as evidence for a down year but 1B and SS are not one of them.

you are forgetting about paul goldschmidt who i'd take at 1B over anyone if i was building a team moving forward. and the point is that freeman's a good player, but his BABIP and his BABIP w/ RISP from 2013 are unsustainable even if his batted balls project him to have a .340ish BABIP (well above avg), but also his high LD rate is going to limit his power potential. to expect a repeat of last season is buying into arguably the best season he could possible put up. even if he improves as a player, his numbers might not be as good as last season again simply because of BABIP luck.

and you aren't taking my points in context. dawg61 said harper, zimmerman, desmond (higher WAR than simmons, and a 20-20 threat, 2nd best WAR among SSs for 2 years now), werth, strasburg, etc. are all merely "good" players and not "elite" and that's why the nats are "overrated". my point is merely to say that why isn't that same standard being applied to the braves?

[War Machine Dawg]

Name a team that wouldn't take Simmons rite now. There may be a couple but the vast majority would take him in a heart beat. His defense is elite...if his offense picks up only slightly he will be the best all around SS in the game. He is at a position where D far outweighs offense.

Freeman is elite rite now. Other than Cabrera and Davis he is the best 1b in the game. And an argument could be made that he's #2 behind Cabrera.

The braves have a lot of areas that some one could point to as evidence for a down year but 1B and SS are not one of them.

No love for Joey Votto or Paul Goldschmidt?

Simmons is elite and really doesn't need to improve his offense all that much. He hit 17 bombs last year to go with a .248 BA. The MLB season average for BA in 2013 was .253. It was .255 in both 2012 & 2011 and .257 in 2010. Hitting .248 is VERY playable now, especially when you're the best defensive player in the game. And if you have some power to go with that .248 BA, it makes you even more valuable. He should gain more pop as he gets older. Any argument that Simmons isn't elite is ridiculous.

[Dawg61]

you are forgetting about paul goldschmidt who i'd take at 1B over anyone if i was building a team moving forward. and the point is that freeman's a good player, but his BABIP and his BABIP w/ RISP from 2013 are unsustainable even if his batted balls project him to have a .340ish BABIP (well above avg), but also his high LD rate is going to limit his power potential. to expect a repeat of last season is buying into arguably the best season he could possible put up. even if he improves as a player, his numbers might not be as good as last season again simply because of BABIP luck.

and you aren't taking my points in context. dawg61 said harper, zimmerman, desmond (higher WAR than simmons, and a 20-20 threat, 2nd best WAR among SSs for 2 years now), werth, strasburg, etc. are all merely "good" players and not "elite" and that's why the nats are "overrated". my point is merely to say that why isn't that same standard being applied to the braves?

It is. I just hate the Nats more than the Braves right now. When the Braves start puffing out their chests again like the beginning of last year I'll switch most hated again.

[dawgs]

It is. I just hate the Nats more than the Braves right now. When the Braves start puffing out their chests again like the beginning of last year I'll switch most hated again.

maybe it's just the internet rounds i make, but it seems like the braves fans are far more present fluffing their team than nats fans. even leading into 2013. (don't confuse fans with the media who was fluffing the nats heading into 2013).

[Dawg61]

maybe it's just the internet rounds i make, but it seems like the braves fans are far more present fluffing their team than nats fans. even leading into 2013. (don't confuse fans with the media who was fluffing the nats heading into 2013).

Braves are usually the most annoying but the two TJ surgeries, McCann leaving and BJ & Uggla still getting paid have them subdued. Been nice. It's early though.

[dawgs]

Braves are usually the most annoying but the two TJ surgeries, McCann leaving and BJ & Uggla still getting paid have them subdued. Been nice. It's early though.

even though i'm not sold on gattis being anything more than a .235 avg/25 HR guy, the braves are probably better off not paying mccann for as much and as long as the yankees did. he's had plenty of injury issues the last few years, generally declining production, and probably needs to DH a fair amount to remain relatively healthy and productive the next 5 seasons. i think it was a good move to let him walk.

[Dawg61]

even though i'm not sold on gattis being anything more than a .235 avg/25 HR guy, the braves are probably better off not paying mccann for as much and as long as the yankees did. he's had plenty of injury issues the last few years, generally declining production, and probably needs to DH a fair amount to remain relatively healthy and productive the next 5 seasons. i think it was a good move to let him walk.

Absolutely was the right move to let McCann walk. Gattis has some magic to himself if he can continue what he did last year the Braves fans won't miss McCann too much. The two starting pitchers going down and the weight of BJ and Uggla's contracts hurt though.

[BoomBoom]

you are forgetting about paul goldschmidt who i'd take at 1B over anyone if i was building a team moving forward. and the point is that freeman's a good player, but his BABIP and his BABIP w/ RISP from 2013 are unsustainable even if his batted balls project him to have a .340ish BABIP (well above avg), but also his high LD rate is going to limit his power potential. to expect a repeat of last season is buying into arguably the best season he could possible put up. even if he improves as a player, his numbers might not be as good as last season again simply because of BABIP luck.

and you aren't taking my points in context. dawg61 said harper, zimmerman, desmond (higher WAR than simmons, and a 20-20 threat, 2nd best WAR among SSs for 2 years now), werth, strasburg, etc. are all merely "good" players and not "elite" and that's why the nats are "overrated". my point is merely to say that why isn't that same standard being applied to the braves?

the history to this line of thought is that Heyward was the top prospect in the Braves system, so Freeman was always viewed as second best. he's been underrated ever since, but just continues to produce at every level in a manner consistent with an elite prospect/player. without that undeserved view of FF not being an elite prospect, you'd look at his production and progression and conclude last year was expected development, not a fluke. Imagine if Heyward has that kind of year this year, will everyone be saying next year how they expect regression?

[msstate7]

the history to this line of thought is that Heyward was the top prospect in the Braves system, so Freeman was always viewed as second best. he's been underrated ever since, but just continues to produce at every level in a manner consistent with an elite prospect/player. without that undeserved view of FF not being an elite prospect, you'd look at his production and progression and conclude last year was expected development, not a fluke. Imagine if Heyward has that kind of year this year, will everyone be saying next year how they expect regression?

FF with 2 hr's tonight. Regression will have to wait till tomorrow