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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Coach34
Chance is not an SEC hitter. He should have never been playing ahead of Jordan
This. You can see it. He is a good hitter but his hand speed doesn’t keep up with SEC pitchers that are throwing mid 90’s. He still probably won’t strike out much, but I doubt he is able to punish the ball.
I hope I’m wrong about that and there have been successful hitters who have been able to get by with lesser than average bat speed. His position complicates things as well.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
smootness
Players aren?t the best at assessing a coach?s ability. They?re too close and too personally involved in the situation.
Even if the problem is pitching and it?s all on Foxhall, it took Lemonis way too long to make that move.
No matter how you slice it, this is on Lemonis. He does not deserve another year. The right move to make a year from now is the right move now. Time for him to go.
Not necessarily. I know plenty of players that played for Jimmy Bragan and most of them said he was awful. I've met St Louis Cardinals players that played for Vern Rapp and Ken Boyer and they all thought they were awful. Lots of MSU players hated Cohen but he did a good job. Players aren't just blindly loyal to coaches no matter what just because they played for them.
It is on Lemonis but I can't fault the guy for not firing the National Assistant Coach of the year after one bad year where we had a ton of injuries. And Lemonis did fire the guy 3/4 of the way through which is kind of unheard of in college baseball.
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I’m very conflicted on the best move to make here. Sometimes with coaches like Moorhead it’s obvious because it’s just so bad and then other times it’s more challenging to figure out the best move. I would be more inclined to keep him if he can wrap up a quality pitching coach like the WF guy, but at the same time if Wake goes to Omaha then we are waiting unless there is some sort of agreement in place long before it’s made public. Many times coaches won’t do that though. At the same time, we can’t let the program get too far in the hole that we suffer years of bad baseball and lose fan interest along with our rumored NIL problems. Selmon definitely has a big decision to make in his first few months on the job
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I also heard we had several pitchers calling their high school coaches to get advice and coaching this year. It is fine for a college athlete to stay in touch with their high school coach and talk game, but actively seeking out advice and coaching when you have a well paid pitching coach on your college team is a huge problem. That is how lost our pitchers were this year and last.
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It's about the Jimmy's and Joe's. Had we signed Skeens, we'd likely have 6 or more additional conference wins (not only his wins, but we'd have more arms for Saturday and Sunday), plus his confidence and energy would spill over. Missing on some pitching evaluations is one of the major issues. We'd likely be hosting.
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Lemonis better do his best recruiting and selling of the program in the portal starting now. We can turn this around with a few good arms and bats. He just has pull out all the stops and bust hump to make it happen.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Really Clark?
Johnson was cut at USC after 2 years because he couldn't throw strikes. All the talent and it was evident but it took him to about 25 to harness it and then 29 to be consistently great and then incredible from 35-40 years old. That's not what a college team can recruit many of hoping they harness it in a year or two.
Not true. He was cut from Team USA. He had his struggles at USC but was a 2nd round pick in 85.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Todd4State
Not necessarily. I know plenty of players that played for Jimmy Bragan and most of them said he was awful. I've met St Louis Cardinals players that played for Vern Rapp and Ken Boyer and they all thought they were awful. Lots of MSU players hated Cohen but he did a good job. Players aren't just blindly loyal to coaches no matter what just because they played for them.
It is on Lemonis but I can't fault the guy for not firing the National Assistant Coach of the year after one bad year where we had a ton of injuries. And Lemonis did fire the guy 3/4 of the way through which is kind of unheard of in college baseball.
Did I say players are blindly loyal to their coaches?
I said they?re often too involved - meaning they sometimes have an opinion of a coach and his ability that reflects their personal relationship with the coach or some other circumstance that biases them or makes them unable to fully assess the coach?s ability. Also, just because they play on the team does not make them a good judge of the coaching and it?s ability to produce good results.
I?m just saying, we should never base a coaching decision solely or even primarily on what the players think.
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Compare the situation to CEOs. Some CEOs are great at stepping into a stable growing organization and steering the ship.
Some CEOs are builders and can enter chaos and turn it around.
Lemo is the former, he was great at that. Excellent even.
He is not the latter..
It's a bad situation all around. He's the wrong guy for where we are now and he will be the wrong guy next year.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
smootness
I?m just saying, we should never base a coaching decision solely or even primarily on what the players think.
No, we should not. Now, if I am the AD, out of a gesture of goodwill, I would talk with players about their thoughts. They are, in fact, the student athletes over which the AD is responsible. So you need to at least show that their opinions matter. The AD can take it for what it is worth but at least the players can have the feeling that they are being considered in the process. Any goodwill/comfort level that can be achieved with the players at this point is a good thing and it would not take much effort to create some of this.
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There wouldn't be massive transfers. That's a false narrative. At least not many that matter. We're going to lose a couple players anyway. Bottom line is our AD doesn't want to make a change. It's his call and he's made it. He'll either look great or he'll lose a lot of support.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
viverlibre
Missing on some pitching evaluations is one of the major issues.
In a cup half full way this gives me a lot of hope for Lemonis. Yes Lemonis gets final say for recruits, but if he?s as hands off as some of y?all say he is, it wouldn?t surprise me if he almost blindly trusted Foxhall when it came to pitchers. Yes that?s on Lemonis for trusting Foxhall who turned out to be? not good, but with the right pitching coach I think the staff could turn things around. Can Lemonis identify the right pitching coach? Remains to be seen.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
smootness
Did I say players are blindly loyal to their coaches?
I said they?re often too involved - meaning they sometimes have an opinion of a coach and his ability that reflects their personal relationship with the coach or some other circumstance that biases them or makes them unable to fully assess the coach?s ability. Also, just because they play on the team does not make them a good judge of the coaching and it?s ability to produce good results.
I?m just saying, we should never base a coaching decision solely or even primarily on what the players think.
Also most players don't have a good frame of reference. They usually have only had one college HC with just his way of doing things so how are they to know a different way that would make them better? And like Moorhead, Lemonis seems to be a good guy that most players like so I'm sure they have his back regardless of whether he is actually the coach they need or not.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
No BS Dawg
I also heard we had several pitchers calling their high school coaches to get advice and coaching this year. It is fine for a college athlete to stay in touch with their high school coach and talk game, but actively seeking out advice and coaching when you have a well paid pitching coach on your college team is a huge problem. That is how lost our pitchers were this year and last.
Several years ago, prior to the start of a regional, I talked to a MLB scout at length. He said pitchers really did learn to pitch until they got to the minors, very college programs were good at coaching pitchers. Most good college pitchers were that based on talent, not coaching.
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If you bring him back it?s time to stop acting like we care and pass that money next door to the football building
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
BuckyIsAB****
If you bring him back it?s time to stop acting like we care and pass that money next door to the football building
Just don't get the "bring him back" folks. Why? Because he can fix it?!!? Didn't we give him this year to fix it after finishing last the previous season. Is 'next to last' fixing it?!!? Where's the logic?!!?
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
smootness
Did I say players are blindly loyal to their coaches?
I said they?re often too involved - meaning they sometimes have an opinion of a coach and his ability that reflects their personal relationship with the coach or some other circumstance that biases them or makes them unable to fully assess the coach?s ability. Also, just because they play on the team does not make them a good judge of the coaching and it?s ability to produce good results.
I?m just saying, we should never base a coaching decision solely or even primarily on what the players think.
Not sure how else you want me to take this quote- "Players aren?t the best at assessing a coach?s ability. They?re too close and too personally involved in the situation."
At any rate- you're still wrong. Players have the best insight IMO because they are around it the most and they have by far the most to gain or lose by the coach being good or bad. They also know and understand both the game and industry- something many of our fans clearly don't. If it were up to our fans they would be royally ****ing up our baseball program right now and most of them are too ignorant to understand it. Many of them are very close to our program- a lot closer than most of us ever are- and they have more insight into the inner workings of everything more than the casual fan. We have too many fans that throw childish temper tantrums because we lose a game and over half the time they're blaming the wrong thing.
Let me say this- when I'm around MLB players I listen when it comes to baseball.
At the end of the day this is a business and that business is winning games. If Lemonis doesn't do it enough he will be gone. Everyone in baseball from MLB down understands and gets that including Lemonis. It's really not that personal.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
maroonmania
Also most players don't have a good frame of reference. They usually have only had one college HC with just his way of doing things so how are they to know a different way that would make them better? And like Moorhead, Lemonis seems to be a good guy that most players like so I'm sure they have his back regardless of whether he is actually the coach they need or not.
Are you really saying that most baseball players only have one coach their whole career? We have many former players that have been in MLB and have played for some of the best of the best in MLB. I'm pretty sure they know what to look for in a coach.
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![Quote](images/misc/quote_icon.png)
Originally Posted by
Todd4State
Are you really saying that most baseball players only have one coach their whole career? We have many former players that have been in MLB and have played for some of the best of the best in MLB. I'm pretty sure they know what to look for in a coach.
Obviously I'm talking about players currently on our team.and their opinion of Lemonis. I thought that was the crux of the discussion. Those are the ones too close to the situation to be objective and like I said, most have only had Lemonis as their COLLEGE head coach.
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Exactly. Lemo either can't evaluate what actual SEC talent is for the most part or he simply has no idea what to do to improve a player. An excellent mess for folks who say that it'll be bad if Lemo is cut loose only in the next breath to say he'll be let go next year.
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