State of State Baseball

[Coach34]

Yeah I hate this cherry picking. If someone thinks batting avg and number of homers are the stats to look at, then they don't know baseball. If they know what stats matter bus still use avg and HRs to make a point, then they're spewing propaganda, not honesty.

Of course average is not the end all of judgements- but extra base hits are a good stat when looking at offensive production. A punch and judy hitter like Foreskin has to hit .340 or so to get any real production. I mean, you can say that his on base percentage is higher than Clark's- but Clark has 19 extra base hits to his 8. Doubles him in total bases and RBI's. Real production

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Is he?

2021- Foreskin hit .231 186 AB's- 5 doubles and a HR...56 K's
2023- Foreskin is hitting .248 in 105 AB's...6 doubles and 2 HR's...21 K's

In 2 years he is slightly better now that he has a tad more pop and now grounds out weakly instead of striking out. He needs to go to Delta State and help them make a run at a D-II playoff spot

No reason for MSU to not have a stud SS on the roster.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Of course average is not the end all of judgements- but extra base hits are a good stat when looking at offensive production. A punch and judy hitter like Foreskin has to hit .340 or so to get any real production. I mean, you can say that his on base percentage is higher than Clark's- but Clark has 19 extra base hits to his 8. Doubles him in total bases and RBI's. Real production

So use OBP instead of average and Slug% instead of raw 2B and HR numbers. That's my point

[Coach34]

So use OBP instead of average and Slug% instead of raw 2B and HR numbers. That's my point

and you totally missed my point that OBP is an overblown stat. Foreskin's OBP is higher than Hines and Clark's but he isn't in the same stratosphere in production. He's almost 100 points higher than Alford but Alford has more production than him.

Bottom line he didnt produce as a freshman and isnt producing as a Junior. Mershon in less than 1/3 of the AB's has the same SB's, on pace to score more runs, hitting 70 points higher currently, has the ability to H&R or bunt for a hit- putting pressure on the D. We've improved our team making the change

[smootness]

and you totally missed my point that OBP is an overblown stat. Foreskin's OBP is higher than Hines and Clark's but he isn't in the same stratosphere in production. He's almost 100 points higher than Alford but Alford has more production than him.

Bottom line he didnt produce as a freshman and isnt producing as a Junior. Mershon in less than 1/3 of the AB's has the same SB's, on pace to score more runs, hitting 70 points higher currently, has the ability to H&R or bunt for a hit- putting pressure on the D. We've improved our team making the change

You are having a different discussion. No one has claimed Forsythe is anything great. The question is simply whether he has improved offensively since his freshman year, and he obviously has.

Also, Mershon is a little better than Forsythe offensively right now but not by a whole lot. Don?t talk about production if you?re going to talk up Mershon.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

and you totally missed my point that OBP is an overblown stat. Foreskin's OBP is higher than Hines and Clark's but he isn't in the same stratosphere in production. He's almost 100 points higher than Alford but Alford has more production than him.

Bottom line he didnt produce as a freshman and isnt producing as a Junior. Mershon in less than 1/3 of the AB's has the same SB's, on pace to score more runs, hitting 70 points higher currently, has the ability to H&R or bunt for a hit- putting pressure on the D. We've improved our team making the change

Obviously OBP isn't ALL that matters, SLG% matters too. Clark and Hines have a way higher SLG, thus they are overall much more valuable.

This isn't to defend Forsythe, I agree Mershonis better. This is about your cherry picking stats.

You picked 2 stats that make it look like Forsythe hasn't gotten better from '21 to '23. This is cherry picking because if you used the stats that DO matter (OBP and SLG) you'd see his SLG went from .274 to .362 and his OBP from .321 to .402. That's a 32% increase in SLG and a 25% increase in OBP. Its ridiculous to say he "hasn't gotten better"

[CaptainObvious]

Goodness! You guys are arguing about The mailroom guy when our Billion Dollar Organization needs a new CEO.

Stockholders need to to see major changes at the Top. Cann had morality problems. Moorhead had personality flaws. McCrae had philosophy issues. Howland had Leadership deficiencies. And Lemonis cannot build and maintain a program to acceptable standards with 3 of the greatest recruiting tools in the history of College Baseball.

[Coach34]

Obviously OBP isn't ALL that matters, SLG% matters too. Clark and Hines have a way higher SLG, thus they are overall much more valuable.

This isn't to defend Forsythe, I agree Mershonis better. This is about your cherry picking stats.

You picked 2 stats that make it look like Forsythe hasn't gotten better from '21 to '23. This is cherry picking because if you used the stats that DO matter (OBP and SLG) you'd see his SLG went from .274 to .362 and his OBP from .321 to .402. That's a 32% increase in SLG and a 25% increase in OBP. Its ridiculous to say he "hasn't gotten better"

and I stand by it- he really hasnt gotten better. aGAIN- he grounds out weakly instead of striking out. If that's "better" to you then fine. Hitting is about production- period. He was, is, and always will be a punch and judy hitter that doesnt produce

[Ezsoil]

[QUOTE=Coach34;1517622]You also cant ignore his abysmal fielding his freshman year. While he played well in the CWS- he was terrible all season in 2021. I'm pretty sure he has the lowest career fielding percentage in the SEC among guys that start[/QUOTE

I recall that the 2021 season started with James at shortstop and had a hard time as well ....the infield didn't stabilize until Forsythe was inserted into the lineup..

[DownwardDawg]

I know this is unpopular but I think the best thing for us would be to keep Lemonis under the condition that he gets a new pitching coach.

I know. This is unacceptable and embarrassing, but who are we gonna hire? A big name from a big program ain't coming here. We couldn't get one last time and that's when we were coming off an Omaha appearance... not missing Hoover for the 2nd straight year like we are this year. We could get a guy like Justin Haire, but are we sure he could deliver? Nope. We'd be taking a chance with anyone.

Lemonis has won and he's recruiting really well. Our freshmen are setting us up for a solid foundation for the future. Yes he's absolutely shit the bed the last 2 years and that's completely unacceptable. We can blame Fox but the blame mostly falls on Lemonis. But I'm just not sure that blowing it up and starting over is the best course of action.

Fire Foxhall, get a new pitching coach, and give him one more season. Hit the portal hard for arms and don't miss on a Skenes this year. Do that or gtfo.

I completely disagree that State can't hire one of the big names. COHEN couldn't hire a big name but everyone knows his personality and a lot of baseball coaches probably don't like that. LSU, Arkansas, etc...... don't seem to have any trouble getting who they want. We have the best baseball stadium and game day experience in the nation. We have the best fan support in the nation also. We can pay as much as anyone for a baseball coach.

[basedog]

I completely disagree that State can't hire one of the big names. COHEN couldn't hire a big name but everyone knows his personality and a lot of baseball coaches probably don't like that. LSU, Arkansas, etc...... don't seem to have any trouble getting who they want. We have the best baseball stadium and game day experience in the nation. We have the best fan support in the nation also. We can pay as much as anyone for a baseball coach.

I agree, I think like you said Cohen was our problem with hiring coaches.

[Leroy Jenkins]

I completely disagree that State can't hire one of the big names. COHEN couldn't hire a big name but everyone knows his personality and a lot of baseball coaches probably don't like that. LSU, Arkansas, etc...... don't seem to have any trouble getting who they want. We have the best baseball stadium and game day experience in the nation. We have the best fan support in the nation also. We can pay as much as anyone for a baseball coach.

Absolutely.

The concern I have with keeping Lemonis is attracting a top-tier pitching coach. Could it scare away some candidates knowing that they could be stepping into a situation where Lemonis may be gone next year?

[Ezsoil]

I completely disagree that State can't hire one of the big names. COHEN couldn't hire a big name but everyone knows his personality and a lot of baseball coaches probably don't like that. LSU, Arkansas, etc...... don't seem to have any trouble getting who they want. We have the best baseball stadium and game day experience in the nation. We have the best fan support in the nation also. We can pay as much as anyone for a baseball coach.

But we have one of worst NIL opportunities in the power 5 ......how many guys to.d us no the last time before Lemonis finally said yes ...and that was with four projected first round players on the returning team and a new stadium....it will be far harder to get any current power 5 coach to come here. Throw in the perception of the schools, it will be hard to get anyone who is married with kids.

[State82]

I agree, I think like you said Cohen was our problem with hiring coaches.

Probably not many top tier college coaches that want to have another baseball coach as their boss.

[Coach34]

But we have one of worst NIL opportunities in the power 5 ......how many guys to.d us no the last time before Lemonis finally said yes ...and that was with four projected first round players on the returning team and a new stadium....it will be far harder to get any current power 5 coach to come here. Throw in the perception of the schools, it will be hard to get anyone who is married with kids.

We are most assuredly not going to hire a big name. Schloss being in the mix was purely because he and TCU were souring with each other. All this crap about Corbin, Vitiello, and others is just funny. Our next hire will be someone from a school like Indiana again or some up and comer like the coach at Campbell. Could possibly be a top SEC assistant like GoTro. That is what we are looking at after Lemon- who I really dont think will be fired. I think he gets one more year

[The Federalist Engineer]

But we have one of worst NIL opportunities in the power 5 ......how many guys to.d us no the last time before Lemonis finally said yes ...and that was with four projected first round players on the returning team and a new stadium....it will be far harder to get any current power 5 coach to come here. Throw in the perception of the schools, it will be hard to get anyone who is married with kids.

Unpacking this:

(1) I though MSU gives some great packages on Tuition. So, a good student in baseball gets instate tuition and other direct benefits. This was even before NIL.
(2) MSU does not have the biggest NIL budget in the SEC, but that is not the same as 0 NIL budget. How much of Alabama's NIL budget go Bohanon? What percentage compared to Saban?
(3) Are you talking about elementary and grade schools in the Starkville area?

[The Federalist Engineer]

Seems that Lemonis being fired is low probably. Let's find the good thing in this:

(1) If he can keep the 2024 recruiting class, this should be a historically great group. 6 players could be major instant impact (2 great SS, OF, LHP, and a RHP).
(2) Lemonis did win 20 games in the first two SEC seasons.
(3) Did win a national championship in 2021. Really did happen.
(4) If he replaces Fox intelligently, this could be a game changer.
(5) An elite PC can be on a different contract cycle than the head coach. Plus he gets many great arms to start with.
(7) Since the AD is not a big mouth and low IQ poker player, nobody really knows that Lemonis is on a hot seat
(8) Next season, you probably get a huge jump in production from Bryce Chance, Dakota Jordan, Mershon, Hunter Hines, Ross Highfill, Hujsak, and Slate Alford. These could be 6 or 7 star hitters. With Hines being a Golden Spike candidate, with a rule against Shifting. With maybe Kellum Clark staying?
(9) Pitching with a better PC cannot be worse. Loftin, Jurrangelo, Gartman, Dohm, Holcombe, Simmons, Pico, and Auger are all good players. That's 8 pitchers. You can expect at least 1 or 2 from Gibbs, Siary, L. Forsythe, and Tapper making a leap. This is a good group with 4 high draft pick candidates. 2 or 3 with potential for 1st/2nd round selection pedigree.
(10) Eye of the tiger and chip on shoulder should be back in 2024.
(11) If MSU can get another RJ, Amani, or Colton from the Portal, then hitting should not go down at all. Hujsak is good already, just can't find a slot to play.
(12) A better PC can help MSU pickup some good Pitchers too. If you can get a JP France from another school, that's instant flex and strength.

[EdwardDrayton]

The rationalizing begins ................

[The Federalist Engineer]

The rationalizing begins ................

What else can you do, other than kick rocks.

I am assuming Edward Drayton is not the CEO of Bryan Foods. Then you can help us out with a buyout.

[smootness]

and I stand by it- he really hasnt gotten better. aGAIN- he grounds out weakly instead of striking out. If that's "better" to you then fine. Hitting is about production- period. He was, is, and always will be a punch and judy hitter that doesnt produce

If Forsythe is a punch and judy hitter, and hitting is all about 'production,' then what on earth is Mershon?