Flores sues NFL

[662dawg]

Oh yea. He inherited a god awful team that started 0-7 with two of the worst games ever to start a year. They looked like a lock for 1-15 at best. He rebuilt them mid season and turned that team around to finish 5-4. (And why he referenced the owner paying bonuses to lose) 24-18 since that start. 19-14 his last two years. Not to mention his QB was injured a vast majority this year. Missing the playoffs the past two years because of one game losing on a FG. He was on the cusp with Miami. Maybe he peaked, maybe not, but I think given another year, that East division would be a bloodbath + the Jets

This is not true. He inherited a second place team, had an upgrade at the QB position & proceeded to finish last in the division in his first season. He missed the playoffs all 3 seasons. Gase took a 6-10 team & turned them into a 10-6 team his first season. The argument could also be made that Gase had them on the cusp when he was canned.

I don?t think Flores race had much to do with him being fired or him ever being hired by anyone else.

[Tater]

This is not true. He inherited a second place team, had an upgrade at the QB position & proceeded to finish last in the division in his first season. He missed the playoffs all 3 seasons. Gase took a 6-10 team & turned them into a 10-6 team his first season. The argument could also be made that Gase had them on the cusp when he was canned.

I don?t think Flores race had much to do with him being fired or him ever being hired by anyone else.

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******* man I've read some funny spin.. but that, THAT is amazing. Bravo. Top tier stupidity.

He inherited a "second place team" is such a intentionally misleading way to describe it.
Here's an article mid offseason about how the Dolphins were going full scale rebuild: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/05/dol...ts-draft-picks

Now for your next point. A quarterback...UPGRADE??? Like really. You look at what Tannehill has done away from Miami, led the Titans to three straight playoff appearances and Call Ryan Fitzpatrick / Josh Rosen an UPGRADE? Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Adam Gase did good in 2016. And then proceeded to deteriorate goodwill and cratered the team. One the cusp? he went 6-10 and 7-9 his last two seasons. Including finishing 4-9 with an OT win and the only game winning multi lateral play in league history.

He then proceeded to torpedo the Jets. It was clear he's not fit to be a HC. His schtick wore thin. Meanwhile Flores finished the year 8-1. No one wanted to see those healthy Dolphins in the playoffs.

And for your last sentence, no one is saying his race got him fired. He's saying his unwillingness to tank games or skirt league rules got him fired. The Dolphins wanted him to court Brady while it was still tampering. That led to an icy relationship and departure. Miami just has shitty ownership and felt the need to fluff themselves after being panned by the media for firing a dubbed rising star like Flores after the finish the team had.

The way they described his relationship with ownership is enough to ensure he'll most likely never get a HC again.

The part where an issue of discrimination comes in is these faux interviews. The Broncos one sounds extremely egregious.

And it's comical when you look at it. The rooney rule serves to help you make a better decision. Coaches know that you HAVE to go through this process. You gain no benefit in deciding to hire the first interviewee. You only serve to hurt yourself by not conducting all your required interviews. Is it shocking that the teams named as flubbing this process (Broncos, Giants) are already searching for a coach again?

[Tater]

Why isn?t this same thought process applied to an NBA/NFL players roster if it?s really about equality?

FWIW I?m glad it isn?t. Both leagues would be much more boring. The best player should play regardless of race, just like the owners should be able to hire who they believe to be the best man to lead their team regardless of race.

You keep trying to bring other sports into this when it's an NFL thing. And again, players of all creed, color, background have opportunity given at every turn. Hiring on athletic capability rather than for authority is a much different job and skill set.

You don't interview five plumbers and make sure one of them is black. You hire the best combination of skill set / price value / reputation. When hiring for management, you need to have a leader who can manage diverse personalities. Different skill set entirely. Disproportionately minorities of every color are not interviewed / hired for these roles. Until you can accept that these are two different job hiring requirements there is no helping you and I pray you never are put in a position to interview / hire a manager. You clearly just don't get the difference at best or are just looking for a cheap lame gotcha at worst. Stop it.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

Where are our resident social justice warriors? I feel it's improper to comment until they have had their chance. Im surprised their radar hasn't gone off.

[OLJWales]

You keep trying to bring other sports into this when it's an NFL thing. And again, players of all creed, color, background have opportunity given at every turn. Hiring on athletic capability rather than for authority is a much different job and skill set.

You don't interview five plumbers and make sure one of them is black. You hire the best combination of skill set / price value / reputation. When hiring for management, you need to have a leader who can manage diverse personalities. Different skill set entirely. Disproportionately minorities of every color are not interviewed / hired for these roles. Until you can accept that these are two different job hiring requirements there is no helping you and I pray you never are put in a position to interview / hire a manager. You clearly just don't get the difference at best or are just looking for a cheap lame gotcha at worst. Stop it.

It's 2022 and Owners & GM's wanna win and don't give a damn about skin color. Lack of minority HC's doesn't automatically mean racism.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

This is a brain dead take. Sports rely on peak athleticism. The best athletes play. There's no need to reach out to white people for basketball because a shit load play. Just they aren't the best of the best. Watch college games more. Especially at the mid major level.

When hiring for leadership roles it's a much more level playing ground and a person's physical abilities don't matter as much as their mental abilities.

Since you believe that white people just aren?t the best athletically, could it not be possible that black people aren?t the best mentally? In 2021 the average ACT score was 16.3 for blacks and 21.7 for whites.

Now I?m not saying that?s true, but you are certainly stating that a person can have certain better skills just because of race. That’s what you are saying.

My point is you can’t have it both ways.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

It's 2022 and Owners & GM's wanna win and don't give a damn about skin color. Lack of minority HC's doesn't automatically mean racism.

I agree with you. Owners and GM’s want to win.

[662dawg]

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahahahhaha hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah


******* man I've read some funny spin.. but that, THAT is amazing. Bravo. Top tier stupidity.

He inherited a "second place team" is such a intentionally misleading way to describe it.
Here's an article mid offseason about how the Dolphins were going full scale rebuild: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/05/dol...ts-draft-picks

Now for your next point. A quarterback...UPGRADE??? Like really. You look at what Tannehill has done away from Miami, led the Titans to three straight playoff appearances and Call Ryan Fitzpatrick / Josh Rosen an UPGRADE? Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha hhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Adam Gase did good in 2016. And then proceeded to deteriorate goodwill and cratered the team. One the cusp? he went 6-10 and 7-9 his last two seasons. Including finishing 4-9 with an OT win and the only game winning multi lateral play in league history.

He then proceeded to torpedo the Jets. It was clear he's not fit to be a HC. His schtick wore thin. Meanwhile Flores finished the year 8-1. No one wanted to see those healthy Dolphins in the playoffs.

And for your last sentence, no one is saying his race got him fired. He's saying his unwillingness to tank games or skirt league rules got him fired. The Dolphins wanted him to court Brady while it was still tampering. That led to an icy relationship and departure. Miami just has shitty ownership and felt the need to fluff themselves after being panned by the media for firing a dubbed rising star like Flores after the finish the team had.

The way they described his relationship with ownership is enough to ensure he'll most likely never get a HC again.

The part where an issue of discrimination comes in is these faux interviews. The Broncos one sounds extremely egregious.

And it's comical when you look at it. The rooney rule serves to help you make a better decision. Coaches know that you HAVE to go through this process. You gain no benefit in deciding to hire the first interviewee. You only serve to hurt yourself by not conducting all your required interviews. Is it shocking that the teams named as flubbing this process (Broncos, Giants) are already searching for a coach again?

How is it misleading? He took a 2nd place team that went 7-9 & turned it into a last place 5-11 team. What?s misleading about it?

In 2018, Ryan Tannehill only played in 11 games & had 1,900 yards passing after missing the entire 2017 season. Brock Osweiler started 5 games. Ryan Fitzpatrick threw for over 3,500 yards in 2019 and was pretty solid his two years in Miami. There was an upgrade at QB from 2018 to 2019. My statement has nothing to do with what they?ve done in their careers, just those two seasons. Tannehill had a few injury plagued seasons at the end of his Dolphins career.

Adam Gase went 6-10 in his second year & 7-9 in his third year. In 2017 Gase?s starting QB Ryan Tannehill missed the season because he injured his leg & he had to go with a declining Jay Cutler & Matt Moore as his QB?s. In fact Cutler retired after the 2017 season.

I?m not saying Gase is a good coach. It?s obvious he?s out of his league, but Flores wasn?t much better & this is not even debatable. Coaches are judged on wins & losses. Gase was 23-25 & Flores was 24-25. Both were given 3 years.

You?re being simple minded. Maybe they just thought, like with Gase, he wasn?t going to work out & wanted to go in a different direction? Maybe other teams had insider knowledge that he was a cancer? Which is pretty obvious at this point, correct?

Although I disagree with what the Dolphins owner tried to get him to do, if true, you can?t think that it?s the only franchise or that he?s the only coach that?s been asked to do so. He?s simply the only coach who has snitched, which isn?t necessarily a terrible thing in this case, but is something he?ll have to live with the consequences for the rest of his life. There is a reason they say snitches get stitches, except in this case the snitches stitches will be that he will likely never coach another down in the NFL.

The jokes on you!

[Hot Rock]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33194862/brian-flores-sues-nfl-others-former-miami-dolphins-coach-alleges-racism-hiring-practices

I think he?s a good coach and I had been really surprised he had not gotten another gig despite the reputation that he was hard to work with. I was shocked he was fired in the first place. But who would hire him now? Yikes.

And I get the the Brian Daboll thing is embarrassing but sometimes teams know who they want before they fire the other and while the Rooney rule has indeed had some positive benefits, it?s still often just a charade.

For example I would assume the Saints plan to hire Dennis Allen - anybody else they interview of any race is probably an uphill battle.

I think he?s going to have a hard time proving this at the level he is trying to since I know there were a couple of minority GM hired this cycle. Lots of OC and DC still in the air. Plus you can?t prove that one team NOT making a hire is proof of systemic issues.

They?ll probably settle because the NFL doesn?t want the bad press but I think he?d have a hard time winning on merit although I have been shocked there hasn?t been a minority head coaching hire thus far in this cycle since there are some high quality candidates out there.

The Giants didn't interview him in good faith. The Belichick texts prove that happened. They already had hired another guy before his interview even happened. They may find out Belichick was wrong but I doubt it.

Assuming proof that the Giants did this and him being wronged, not standing up and suing would be the snowflake move.

The next question:

Is it about race? The Giants may not think it is but that it still could be. They hired a guy without even interviewing a black candidate which is required under NFL rules. The Giants may not have consciously said, "I am not hiring a black guy." But their systematic hiring practices exclude even the notion that a black guy could be hired is in play. I mean they didn't even interview him or any black candidate before making their hire.

There have been plenty of horrible white head coaches that got new head coaching jobs. Some even went on to have some success at other places. When is it going to be OK to be a horrible black coach and get another gig to be afforded those same opportunities.

[MrCoachKlein]

That's fine and dandy in a perfect world but studies have shown that forcing this method works in the long haul to promote equal opportunity and a more even split. It's to help eliminate biases that you may even be blind to. We unfortunately don't start from scratch. So this is needed. People don't consciously make the decision, but it is a reality that you are always going to prefer people who look like you in some manner. It's subconscious biases that we all have. Animalistic instinct if you will. You want to test it... just go gather 10 sugar ants and 10 fire ants. Get them from different colonies. Put them all in a jar. Shake it up. The sugar ants will work together to attack the fire ants and vice versa.

Given that, guard rails need to be put in place. And it's such a disgrace when you spit in the face of that and use people to fill a quota.

"Even opportunity" (equality) does not equal "even split" (equity). They created a racist rule to fight racism.

"It's subconscious biases that we all have." Replace "black" with "white" in any rule based on skin color and see if it checks some of your subconscious biases.

[Tater]

Since you believe that white people just aren?t the best athletically, could it not be possible that black people aren?t the best mentally? In 2021 the average ACT score was 16.3 for blacks and 21.7 for whites.

Now I?m not saying that?s true, but you are certainly stating that a person can have certain better skills just because of race. That’s what you are saying.

My point is you can’t have it both ways.

Standardized tests have largely been proven to have social biases inherently prevalent in them. And are more a predictor of obedience and memory recall than they are leadership qualities. Congrats on making the opposite point that you tried to make.

[Tater]

How is it misleading? He took a 2nd place team that went 7-9 & turned it into a last place 5-11 team. What?s misleading about it?

In 2018, Ryan Tannehill only played in 11 games & had 1,900 yards passing after missing the entire 2017 season. Brock Osweiler started 5 games. Ryan Fitzpatrick threw for over 3,500 yards in 2019 and was pretty solid his two years in Miami. There was an upgrade at QB from 2018 to 2019. My statement has nothing to do with what they?ve done in their careers, just those two seasons. Tannehill had a few injury plagued seasons at the end of his Dolphins career.

Adam Gase went 6-10 in his second year & 7-9 in his third year. In 2017 Gase?s starting QB Ryan Tannehill missed the season because he injured his leg & he had to go with a declining Jay Cutler & Matt Moore as his QB?s. In fact Cutler retired after the 2017 season.

I?m not saying Gase is a good coach. It?s obvious he?s out of his league, but Flores wasn?t much better & this is not even debatable. Coaches are judged on wins & losses. Gase was 23-25 & Flores was 24-25. Both were given 3 years.

You?re being simple minded. Maybe they just thought, like with Gase, he wasn?t going to work out & wanted to go in a different direction? Maybe other teams had insider knowledge that he was a cancer? Which is pretty obvious at this point, correct?

Although I disagree with what the Dolphins owner tried to get him to do, if true, you can?t think that it?s the only franchise or that he?s the only coach that?s been asked to do so. He?s simply the only coach who has snitched, which isn?t necessarily a terrible thing in this case, but is something he?ll have to live with the consequences for the rest of his life. There is a reason they say snitches get stitches, except in this case the snitches stitches will be that he will likely never coach another down in the NFL.

The jokes on you!

If you're unwilling to even acknowledge that the Dolphins obviously went full scale rebuild between 2018 and 2019 to make your point then you're a lost cause.

Next you'll acknowledge it then blame Flores even though he's not the GM.

ETA: I'm done with this tangent with you. It's not even really relevant. He wasn't fired because of his race. And he was better than Gase. The Dolphins have been a trash organization since Shula left. There's a reason they've only had back to back winning seasons once since 2003 and why most people who don't live in your bubble of stupidity thought it was dumb to move on from him. It's piss poor upper management. But again that's not up for debate here. The Giants & Broncos hiring practices are more under fire.

[sleepy dawg]

It's 2022 and Owners & GM's wanna win and don't give a damn about skin color. Lack of minority HC's doesn't automatically mean racism.

Clearly the Dolphins didn't want to win. Why would they even hire him if they wanted him to lose? They could've just kept Gase to do that.

[OLJWales]

I agree with you. Owners and GM’s want to win.

When and how did "Equal Rights" Convert to "Equal Outcomes"? Sad.

[Tater]

"Even opportunity" (equality) does not equal "even split" (equity). They created a racist rule to fight racism.

"It's subconscious biases that we all have." Replace "black" with "white" in any rule based on skin color and see if it checks some of your subconscious biases.

It's not black and white

It's "longstanding oppressive majority now trying to do better" and "oppressed minorities"

Equal Opportunity is not Equity and no one is saying it is. But the fact that it's not perfect isn't a reason to NOT attempt it. Do not let perfect be the enemy of good.

[Tater]

I agree with you. Owners and GM’s want to win.

Then why did the Broncos not fairly interview all their required candidates and do their due dilligence to information gather ideas to better push their team forward. Only to fire their chosen man 3 years later. It's a bad strategy to decide to hire the first interviewee without even hearing any other pitches when you are required to do so. I'd argue they want to do what they want and stroke their ego more than they want to win. Otherwise their hiring practice would be better. (Which I do acknowledge they've begun cleaning house from the top down, so it would appear they knew that approach wasn't conducive to long term success anymore.)

[Irondawg]

The Giants didn't interview him in good faith. The Belichick texts prove that happened. They already had hired another guy before his interview even happened. They may find out Belichick was wrong but I doubt it.

Assuming proof that the Giants did this and him being wronged, not standing up and suing would be the snowflake move.

The next question:

Is it about race? The Giants may not think it is but that it still could be. They hired a guy without even interviewing a black candidate which is required under NFL rules. The Giants may not have consciously said, "I am not hiring a black guy." But their systematic hiring practices exclude even the notion that a black guy could be hired is in play. I mean they didn't even interview him or any black candidate before making their hire.

There have been plenty of horrible white head coaches that got new head coaching jobs. Some even went on to have some success at other places. When is it going to be OK to be a horrible black coach and get another gig to be afforded those same opportunities.

That may all be true and if so, sue the Giants. But he took on the whole league. If you?ve got a clear case against the Giants use them to make an example.

[Hot Rock]

That may all be true and if so, sue the Giants. But he took on the whole league. If you?ve got a clear case against the Giants use them to make an example.

Well, I don't know the whole story of why. I just read a little this morning. He may have a very good case, if not, he should have stuck with just the Giants like you said. That is usually decided or at least guided by lawyers who always want to go after the deepest pockets.

[HoopsDawg]

The more interesting part of the lawsuit is he alleges Miami offered him 100k to purposely lose games his first year. Seems this allegation could get whoever offered that in trouble

That is interesting, but I don't see what that has to do with race.

[Coach34]

The Giants didn't interview him in good faith. The Belichick texts prove that happened. They already had hired another guy before his interview even happened. They may find out Belichick was wrong but I doubt it.

Assuming proof that the Giants did this and him being wronged, not standing up and suing would be the snowflake move.

The next question:

Is it about race? The Giants may not think it is but that it still could be. They hired a guy without even interviewing a black candidate which is required under NFL rules. The Giants may not have consciously said, "I am not hiring a black guy." But their systematic hiring practices exclude even the notion that a black guy could be hired is in play. I mean they didn't even interview him or any black candidate before making their hire.

There have been plenty of horrible white head coaches that got new head coaching jobs. Some even went on to have some success at other places. When is it going to be OK to be a horrible black coach and get another gig to be afforded those same opportunities.

Good luck with that. He was indeed interviewed by multiple executives and it lasted over 4 hours. Being a token interview for jobs happens everyday in all facets of work on all levels. I've interviewed for some head jobs knowing who was going to get the job over me- a couple of them back in the day comes to mind. I still went to the interviews knowing they were going to hire the hometown son. And they did.

Bottom line- Mike Tomlin won a SB in his 2nd season and also made it to another. While he hasnt been but to 1 AFC championship game in the last 10 years- he still hasnt had a losing season. You want to keep your job? Be more like Mike Tomlin. He and Harbaugh in Baltimore are about the same guy.
I dont really see any coaches have 3 losing seasons in a row and keep their jobs in the NFL. Marr Rhule is already being talked about as on the hotseat in 2022. It's the nature of the beast