A Couple of Quick QB Thoughts

[HoopsDawg]

I hope we didn't hire an end of the career joe lee dunn.

[War Machine Dawg]

1. Where did this KT would be a good WR talk come from? He caught 1 pass & dropped 1 pass in his career. KT is athletic for a QB. His athleticism wouldn't stand out at WR

3. Part of the reason our best QB's were dual threat guys is because we were running option & read option offenses. The reason why the pocket passers weren't effective is because they were in offenses that didn't cater to their strengths. Leach is going to recruit those WR's because he's throwing 50x a game. Why would a WR want to come play in those previous offenses when they're clearly run heavy systems.

Also it's not like all those dual threat QB's had led us to some great football history. Let's try something different because the past 100 years hasn't exactly led us to a full trophy case.

This is a very valid point that I fully acknowledge. We've never really been a program that slings the football around the field. That said, we have been able to attract some really good WRs through the years: Willie Harris, Moulds, Prentiss, Justin Jenkins, Bear Wilson, Fred Ross all immediately come to mind for me.

But as for QB, your point is fair. I've said this before and I'll say it again: If we're ever going to try to be a pass first program, Leach is the guy you'd want to try it. If he can't make it work for us, then it won't ever work here. In 4 years, we'll have a definitive answer to this debate one way or the other.

I hope like hell it works, because I want MSU to win. I don't care if we do it with a power spread option or Air Raid. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. Winning is what's fun for me. I enjoy discussing the systems, process, etc., but ultimately all I really want is for MSU to be as good as we possibly can. I can set my personal preferences aside as long as we're successful.

And one other thing about Leach I really like: He'll never be scared of or get tight ass coaching against Saban, Jimbo, etc. I don't think he's capable of going conservative, even when it may be to his detriment. He's going to try to not only win, but to score as much as he can while winning. I don't know the last time we had a coach with that mentality.

Dammit, I can't wait for the season to start, whenever that may be. I expect us to be pretty bad this season with it being a rebuilding year, no spring practices and having a roster very ill-suited to the Air Raid, transfers notwithstanding. I still think we needed to add a WR way more than another QB. But I think we'll see improvement, regardless of whatever our record ends up being. That's something I can live with while Leach churns the roster to get the players he needs on campus.

[War Machine Dawg]

Disagree on point 1. It?s moot now, but IF Mullen doesn?t leave, KT is the next great QB at State. He fit Mullen to a T. Unfortunately for him, that was not in the cards.

ETA: I am disagreeing with the comment ?it wasn?t ever going to happen for him at State?. And granted, I figure his comment was based on the fact Mullen left, so maybe my argument is dumb. I just want to talk some damn football, thanks OP ��.

I meant it wasn't going to happen for him after Mullen left. Completely agree he'd have been our next badass QB had Mullen stayed. Or if the "Offensive Guru" actually attempted to do his job and develop a QB. That's all I meant when I said it wasn't going to happen for KT here. The day Mullen left was the day KT's MSU career died.

[Todd4State]

This is a very valid point that I fully acknowledge. We've never really been a program that slings the football around the field. That said, we have been able to attract some really good WRs through the years: Willie Harris, Moulds, Prentiss, Justin Jenkins, Bear Wilson, Fred Ross all immediately come to mind for me.

But as for QB, your point is fair. I've said this before and I'll say it again: If we're ever going to try to be a pass first program, Leach is the guy you'd want to try it. If he can't make it work for us, then it won't ever work here. In 4 years, we'll have a definitive answer to this debate one way or the other.

I hope like hell it works, because I want MSU to win. I don't care if we do it with a power spread option or Air Raid. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. Winning is what's fun for me. I enjoy discussing the systems, process, etc., but ultimately all I really want is for MSU to be as good as we possibly can. I can set my personal preferences aside as long as we're successful.

And one other thing about Leach I really like: He'll never be scared of or get tight ass coaching against Saban, Jimbo, etc. I don't think he's capable of going conservative, even when it may be to his detriment. He's going to try to not only win, but to score as much as he can while winning. I don't know the last time we had a coach with that mentality.

Dammit, I can't wait for the season to start, whenever that may be. I expect us to be pretty bad this season with it being a rebuilding year, no spring practices and having a roster very ill-suited to the Air Raid, transfers notwithstanding. I still think we needed to add a WR way more than another QB. But I think we'll see improvement, regardless of whatever our record ends up being. That's something I can live with while Leach churns the roster to get the players he needs on campus.

I know that Leach gives the QB a TON of freedom in his offense. Just a theory- but I wonder if that is part of the reason why his offense has so many pass attempts. I would imagine that if you gave a QB almost complete control of an offense more often than not they're probably going to throw it.

[Todd4State]

I meant it wasn't going to happen for him after Mullen left. Completely agree he'd have been our next badass QB had Mullen stayed. Or if the "Offensive Guru" actually attempted to do his job and develop a QB. That's all I meant when I said it wasn't going to happen for KT here. The day Mullen left was the day KT's MSU career died.

Maybe. I just don't think KT was accurate enough. He wasn't even at 50%. Dan is a GREAT QB developer no doubt but even he has his Damian Williams guys that just don't pan out like everyone else.

[FISHDAWG]

The Schrader situation fascinates me. Dual threat who could become a good passer but who is not a pure passer. Wonder if leach is intrigued by his ability to run or just annoyed by it

I think Schrader is an asset we need to keep close ... I know we're recruiting better passing QB's and WR's ...... none of this Pro-style will work very good without a competent OL , and as we transition to Leach's offense I think we are going to have to transition slowly until we have an OL that can give Pro style protection .... I'm excited about the new talent coming in - someone tell me if we're going to be any better on the OL because I really don't know

[RiverCityDawg]

I think Schrader is an asset we need to keep close ... I know we're recruiting better passing QB's and WR's ...... none of this Pro-style will work very good without a competent OL , and as we transition to Leach's offense I think we are going to have to transition slowly until we have an OL that can give Pro style protection .... I'm excited about the new talent coming in - someone tell me if we're going to be any better on the OL because I really don't know

First, I would say we were average on the offensive line, not bad.

But with that said, part of what worked against us was this idea of sort of run blocking, but not driving downfield because every play has a pass tag (RPO) so you're blocking the guy in front but looking to the next level and at the end of the day sometimes they were caught in no-man's land. On straight drop backs we just didn't have a competent plan and were typically doing it in obvious passing situations. I'm also not convinced our OL coach bought into the JoMo philosophy.

Lastly, we aren't looking for "pro-style protection". We are running the Air Raid. Folks have to understand that what we are doing now is not like having Sparky Woods as our OC But just throw it more. It's a completely different philosophy that makes the passing volume not only viable but effective. It's literally worked everywhere Leach has been and all the places except WSU were traditional running teams before he (and Mumme when Leach was a OC) got there.

[basedog]

I think Schrader is an asset we need to keep close ... I know we're recruiting better passing QB's and WR's ...... none of this Pro-style will work very good without a competent OL , and as we transition to Leach's offense I think we are going to have to transition slowly until we have an OL that can give Pro style protection .... I'm excited about the new talent coming in - someone tell me if we're going to be any better on the OL because I really don't know

Hopefully Shrader is working somewhere on his throwing and staying somewhat in shape. I don't keep up with all of the Leach's Qb style, but from what I have read mostly from you guys, he likes to throw the ball quickly or have Qb's get rid of the ball. No reason why Shrader can't improve throwing quicker and accurate as he was a Freshman and should be much improved in years ahead.

I like the hire with Leach, but I am a wait and see to see what is next for Msu. Leach can Coach but now his biggest test lies ahead as the Sec is by far the toughest conference. I would rate the Big 12 and Pac 12 as the two worse power 5 conferences. Also we shall see how our defense will be Coached. Our last two DC were really good!

[Turfdawg67]

I hope we didn't hire an end of the career joe lee dunn.

Who would? Or are you coyly saying that you believe we hired a has been?

[Turfdawg67]

Maybe. I just don't think KT was accurate enough. He wasn't even at 50%. Dan is a GREAT QB developer no doubt but even he has his Damian Williams guys that just don't pan out like everyone else.

He started all of 2 games. Maybe he would've gotten more accurate with more playing time? Certainly possible for such a highly rated recruit. And his yds/rec was close to 9 too.

[HoopsDawg]

Who would? Or are you coyly saying that you believe we hired a has been?

Joe Lee was ahead of his time, schematically, but never adapted or adjusted as offenses evolved. The tail end of his career did not go well.

Leach is going to run his system no matter what. I'm not a big fan of a coach that doesn't adapt and can't even run a few players under center. Even the victory formation is out of the shotgun. Having said that, defenses haven't evolved as much as offenses and there's only so much you can do on defense.

[RiverCityDawg]

Joe Lee was ahead of his time, schematically, but never adapted or adjusted as offenses evolved. The tail end of his career did not go well.

Leach is going to run his system no matter what. I'm not a big fan of a coach that doesn't adapt and can't even run a few players under center. Even the victory formation is out of the shotgun. Having said that, defenses haven't evolved as much as offenses and there's only so much you can do on defense.

Fair points, but offensive dictates the evolution, not the defense, that's why it didn't go well for JLD at the end.

Also I would argue that offenses are actually evolving more towards what Leach is doing across all of football. Air Raid schemes are extremely prevalent and it's even made its way to the NFL with the Chiefs, Cardinals and even the Patriots having some air raid concepts. Heck NFL defenses run nickel 70% of the time just because offenses are usually in 11 personnel and often doing it out of shotgun. "Base" 4-3 or 3-4 defense isn't even base anymore, and it is all dictated by the offenses.

I agree that adapting is important IF you can't coach the players to do what you want and know best (see: Moorhead, Joe), but Leach has been able to install his system everywhere he's been with good success. It would be shocking to me if he couldn't also do it here.

As for not running a few plays under center, yeah I'd prefer a QB sneak at least be in the playbook too.

[Todd4State]

He started all of 2 games. Maybe he would've gotten more accurate with more playing time? Certainly possible for such a highly rated recruit. And his yds/rec was close to 9 too.

Maybe marginally. But that still wouldn't be accurate enough. His yards per reception is skewed because of his performance against a terrible Stephen F Austin team in which he failed to complete 50% of his passes.

[HoopsDawg]

Leach played a lot of swiss cheese defenses in the big 12 and Pac 12. Last year, he played 3 decent defenses:

Utah: 13 points
Oregon: 35 points
Washington: 13 points

I think the offense of today is what LSU did last year. It was the perfect college system. Air raid concepts, Spread concepts, a little RPO, and the ability to line up under center and run the ball. That's what you see from the Chiefs, Saints, etc. I really wanted to see if Joe Judge could do it here, but the Giants inexplicably stole him from us. It's very difficult to be one dimensional in today's offensive game. B/c like rivercity said, everyone has 5 DB's now.

[thf24]

Maybe marginally. But that still wouldn't be accurate enough. His yards per reception is skewed because of his performance against a terrible Stephen F Austin team in which he failed to complete 50% of his passes.

If memory serves, over a third of his yards in that game came from two badly underthrown passes that would have been almost certain picks against SEC secondaries.

[dawgday166]

And one other thing about Leach I really like: He'll never be scared of or get tight ass coaching against Saban, Jimbo, etc. I don't think he's capable of going conservative, even when it may be to his detriment. He's going to try to not only win, but to score as much as he can while winning. I don't know the last time we had a coach with that mentality.

I can remember when we had a coach like that ... never.

[Jarius]

1. I'm not surprised KT is transferring. Definitely disappointed, though. I was hoping he'd stay and play WR. He'd be one of our best WRs immediately with his speed and hands. But if he's hellbent on being a QB, it wasn't ever going to happen for him at State. He'll have 2 to play 2 somewhere after redshirting last year. Good luck to him.

2. Leach loves pro style, pocket passer QBs. He's one of the best QB coaches in the nation and THE guru of the Air Raid Offense. If that's what he thinks will make his offense most effective, then he should go all in with it. And that's exactly what he's doing with Costello, the ESPN 300 QB that's committed, etc. I'm interested to see how it works for him and us. That said...

3. I still think it's dumb to try to have pocket passing QBs at MSU. Virtually every good QB we've ever had was a mobile, dual threat type: Bond, Felker, Don Smith, Sleepy, Madkin, Omarr, Relf, Dak, Fitz. Conversely, some of our biggest busts or terrible QBs were pocket passers: Todd Jordan, Taite, Fant, Henig, Tyler Russel, etc. Why is that? IMO, it's because our OL and WR talent is too inconsistent. We can never seem to have all 3 positions be SEC quality at the same time. Sometimes we were lucky if just one of the three positions were SEC quality. For instance: I'll always believe Fant was good enough, but our OL wasn't even JUCO quality when he was here, so he took beating after beating and eventually developed QB PTSD. Tyler Russell didn't really have the WRs he needed to be successful. I could go on and on.

But bottom line IMO is that MSU needs a QB that can make plays with his feet to keep the chains moving when play breaks down. Hope like hell I'm wrong and Leach & Co can consistently recruit some badass pass protecting OL and SEC caliber WRs. We know he'll take obscure QBs and make them look all-world. Hope like hell I'm wrong about all this and we enter a golden age of MSU football success as an Air Raid team. And honestly, if anyone can find the guys he needs to make it work, it'll be Leach. I'm really, really interested to see how it all plays out over the next 3-4 years as we transition away from the spread option. And I hope Leach makes it work so he can stick it to Lefty Spineless Bastard when the time comes (don't even get me started on that assclown right now).

Anyway, as always, feel free to agree or disagree. Hadn't posted in a while, had these thoughts rattling around, and thought I'd share while it was on my mind. Hope everyone is staying safe and we can #ReopenAmerica soon.

Hail State!

Yes, MSU has used mobile quarterbacks and focused on running the ball for our entire existence and we have a below .500 all time record to show for it. The glory years of MSU football (now) are other teams in this league’s embarrassing years in many cases. Maybe, just maybe we should....you know.....try something different. The reason we have never been able to recruit receivers is because we have never ran an offense that didn’t feature the quarterback running the ball 15 times a game or more.

[Todd4State]

If memory serves, over a third of his yards in that game came from two badly underthrown passes that would have been almost certain picks against SEC secondaries.

Your memory serves you correctly.

I can remember when we had a coach like that ... never.

Jackie wasn't scared of Alabama. LSU? That's another story. Not sure if he was scared or if LSU/Arkansas were just never in his three games that you can get a team up to play for.

Yes, MSU has used mobile quarterbacks and focused on running the ball for our entire existence and we have a below .500 all time record to show for it. The glory years of MSU football (now) are other teams in this league’s embarrassing years in many cases. Maybe, just maybe we should....you know.....try something different. The reason we have never been able to recruit receivers is because we have never ran an offense that didn’t feature the quarterback running the ball 15 times a game or more.

It's crazy to me how resistant some MSU fans are to throwing the ball.

[dawgday166]

Your memory serves you correctly.



Jackie wasn't scared of Alabama. LSU? That's another story. Not sure if he was scared or if LSU/Arkansas were just never in his three games that you can get a team up to play for.



It's crazy to me how resistant some MSU fans are to throwing the ball.

But Jackie wasn't winging it all over the place. He was gonna beat them with defense and the ground game for the most part. And if he got the lead he was gonna rely on his D to hold it later in the game. So that's what I meant there.

Leach ... he still be trying to score points and put a 100 on them.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Agreed.