Basketball

[Coach007]

This same "hope" has been dangling on a limb for what's nearing a whole decade of shitty basketball now. Wake me when the conference is back to it was before and is in it's rightful place beside the ACC and B1G....

Msu made a mistake. Let's not make another. The sec will be a lot stronger next year and it does not take much honesty to be able to admit it. If Msu does not move to correct it this season... we will be looking at a decade of horrible basketball and few people watching.

[engie]

Msu made a mistake. Let's not make another. The sec will be a lot stronger next year and it does not take much honesty to be able to admit it. If Msu does not move to correct it this season... we will be looking at a decade of horrible basketball and few people watching.

This was the same line Coach34 used for the last 7 years he campaigned for Stans' removal...

Our fans are idiots. Quit trying to make every 40 minutes the be-all, end-all in the big picture. It's not. 3 bad games in a row(all on the road) doesn't make us a terrible team any more than the 5 before that at home made us a great team. Everyone agrees we've got to do better or it'll be time to talk about making a move. That doesn't make right now the time to talk about making a move.

[Jacksondevildog]

This was the same line Coach34 used for the last 7 years he campaigned for Stans' removal...

Our fans are idiots. Quit trying to make every 40 minutes the be-all, end-all in the big picture. It's not. 3 bad games in a row(all on the road) doesn't make us a terrible team any more than the 5 before that at home made us a great team. Everyone agrees we've got to do better or it'll be time to talk about making a move. That doesn't make right now the time to talk about making a move.

At what point do you say enough is enough?

[chef dixon]

the Juco that can score with either hand either facing or with his back to the basket. He's a poor man's Tyler Hansborough and would've been huge for us this year.

Does he have a name?

[engie]

At what point do you say enough is enough?

Not 1/4 of the way through what is, for all intents and purposes, year 1...

Why is it so hard to give the guy one full season where the deck isn't stacked against him before we start trying to decide his future for him?

Why does every shitty performance have to be applied to the big picture? Why can't it just be a shitty performance that's(actually) about 3% of the total picture of ONE season?

I really am going to have to rewind and link SPS to the day Cohen dropped the first two against Alabama in year 3 to fall to 7-13 in the SEC and 24-18 overall(with a shitty schedule) and fully out of postseason contention at the time for people to understand where I'm coming from aren't I?

Let year 3 play out. Expectations are clear. No one is taking up for the last 3 shitburger performances. But they don't define a whole season either.

[M.Fillmore]

I confess that I have only listened to two hoops games this year. Both games had Richard Williams with color commentary. This may be pre-Germanic, but this periodic or is this the new gig for Williams?

[Bothrops]

I know less about basketball now than I did before Ray was hired. I'm not knocking Ray, I just don't understand how basketball players that have been playing most of their lives...and are now in a major college program), can't shoot the ball with better percentages. Hell, even if I practiced that much I'd like to think I would be a better shooter down the road than I am today. I'm not talking about having to make contested shots with a 6'7 PG in your face, but just making open shots. Eventually you should get a feel for the net.

[engie]

http://sixpackspeak.yuku.com/forums/...0#.VI3e9ivF-So

Feel free to scroll through a dozen pages each way and check out the prevailing thoughts on our baseball team at that time.

I'm not saying Ray = Cohen. I'm saying that impulsive "big picture" thoughts after bad performances/after a rebuild during the middle of the season are a bad idea. There's SO much gold from those couple of pages given the benefit of our hindsight now that should speak to people's ability to call a bad performance a bad performance without wanting to fire coaches midseason. But I already know that those who don't get it won't....

[msstate7]

I confess that I have only listened to two hoops games this year. Both games had Richard Williams with color commentary. This may be pre-Germanic, but this periodic or is this the new gig for Williams?

He's been there all year. Probably just doing it till he replaces ray*

[Jacksondevildog]

Not 1/4 of the way through what is, for all intents and purposes, year 1...

Why is it so hard to give the guy one full season where the deck isn't stacked against him before we start trying to decide his future for him?

Why does every shitty performance have to be applied to the big picture? Why can't it just be a shitty performance that's(actually) about 3% of the total picture of ONE season?

I really am going to have to rewind and link SPS to the day Cohen dropped the first two against Alabama in year 3 to fall to 7-13 in the SEC and 24-18 overall(with a shitty schedule) and fully out of postseason contention at the time for people to understand where I'm coming from aren't I?

Let year 3 play out. Expectations are clear. No one is taking up for the last 3 shitburger performances. But they don't define a whole season either.

The difference between Cohen and Ray is totally different. We all knew that Cohen was recruiting his way out of the mess. He was bringing in top 10 classes. I don't see a lot that makes me excited about next year. Ware is improved, but sword and Thomas are about the same players that they were as freshmen. The kid from Jones JC will help, but it will probably take him a year to adjust at MSU because we are MSU. Theres also no telling how many injuries we will have in the off season. I'm not saying that I want Ray fired. It just seems like we give too long of a leash before we pull the plug on a coach.

[engie]

The difference between Cohen and Ray is totally different.

How's that?

We all knew that Cohen was recruiting his way out of the mess.

We obviously didn't know any of that at the time. Read up on it.
http://sixpackspeak.yuku.com/forums/...0#.VI3e9ivF-So

He was bringing in top 10 classes.

Ray's last 3 commits have been many-offer 4*s. And in spite of our message board crowd wanting Ray fired right this minute, Malik Newman is still trending toward us.

I don't see a lot that makes me excited about next year.

No one saw anything to be excited about with Cohen at this point in his tenure either.

Ware is improved, but sword and Thomas are about the same players that they were as freshmen.

See -- This is what I'm talking about. Same players?
Sword 2013: .405FG%, .194 3P%, .554FT%, 2.9RPG, 2.3APG, 1.7SPG, 4TOPG
2014(since he hasn't made 100% this year yet off injury): .485FG%, .273 3P%, .620FT%, 3.8RPG, 2.8APG, 1.9SPG, 3TOPG

Thomas 2013: .328FG%, .238 3P%, 3.5RPG, 13.0PPG
2015: .405FG%, .439 3P%, 4.8RPG, 9.7PPG

What's the same about that? Fact is -- Thomas is going to shoot well north of 40% from 3 this year, and I think Sword can get up to the mid 30s as well, which isn't great -- but makes him a threat that we don't currently get from the spot.

The kid from Jones JC will help, but it will probably take him a year to adjust at MSU because we are MSU.

He'll be here a year and almost a half before he sees the court at MSU -- so I guess that's a good thing...

Theres also no telling how many injuries we will have in the off season.

Have had one major injury in last 2 years here. So, I'd set the over/under at 0.5

I'm not saying that I want Ray fired. It just seems like we give too long of a leash before we pull the plug on a coach.

Asking for people to withhold judgement until the end of year 3 is "too long of leash"? If he doesn't show DRASTIC improvement over what he's shown the first 2 years and the last 3 games by the end of the year, EVERYONE will be ready for him to go. That's the logical timeframe of judgement.

It doesn't mean that we can't and shouldn't get pissed about shitburger games. We should. It's attempting to apply the big picture on a very narrow snapshot of the overall data that I've got the problem with. We get closer to the whole picture, then we can talk about what direction we need to go.

[Jacksondevildog]

You can break down the discussion however you want, but Ray will not be our head coach at MSU if things continue as they are currently going. Cohen was a MSU guy that was a relentless recruiter and was signing pitching arms to fix the mess that he inherited. You can turn around MSU baseball quicker than you can basketball because we historically recruit better. Cohen won the SEC at Kentucky. He was a proven recruiter and head coach. Some of our players are statistically improved but we are a shit show at times and make stupid turnovers for "juniors". We have long periods of play where don't score ONE basket. We can look at 2016 commitments, but they can't help this year or next. It's also rare for us to sign guys that are impact guys as freshmen. So that means those 2016 guys will really contribute in 2017 or 2018. I'll just sit back and say everything is ok for the next three years regardless of what the product looks like cohesively on the court. Stats are one thing, but the way a group plays together is another.

[engie]

You can break down the discussion however you want,

Right. Logically.

but Ray will not be our head coach at MSU if things continue as they are currently going.

If you would actually read the link posted(twice now), you would say the exact same thing about Cohen "if things had continued as they were currently going."

Cohen was a MSU guy that was a relentless recruiter

Ray not a relentless recruiter now? HAHA. He's recruiting his ass off effort-wise and anyone thinking/saying otherwise is pushing an agenda or are very uninformed...

was signing pitching arms to fix the mess that he inherited.

Why did it take into year 4 for our pitching staff to be decent? Hell, everyone still wanted Butch fired AFTER we made the run in 2011(a run largely carried by our SR JUCO bats). In 2012, Butch had the best pitching staff in the country and one of the best in MSU history. And everyone has tried to edit their thoughts at the time to where "they knew it all along" when NOTHING is further from the truth, and I linked you literally hundreds of posts and threads of evidence. There were those that had his/Cohen's back throughout -- but they were few.

You can turn around MSU baseball quicker than you can basketball because we historically recruit better.

If that's actually the case(I disagree btw), then you are willing to wait into year 4 to start judging Ray then? Your words that it takes longer -- not mine. Personally, I'm judging Ray extensively on what happens this season.

Cohen won the SEC at Kentucky. He was a proven recruiter and head coach.

Which didn't prevent our fanbase from wanting his head on a platter. Also has nothing to do with the point I'm making, which involves "big picture" posting when things are going badly in the middle of a very long season.

Some of our players are statistically improved but we are a shit show at times and make stupid turnovers for "juniors".

All. Basically all of our(healthy) players are statistically improved across the board.

Yes, we do make some of the worst damn turnovers I've ever seen and it pisses me off when we do.

We have long periods of play where don't score ONE basket.

Very annoying, I agree.

We can look at 2016 commitments, but they can't help this year or next.

Look at the 2015 guys then.

It's also rare for us to sign guys that are impact guys as freshmen.

Rare at MSU? You're kidding right? Tookie, Weatherspoon, Hicks, Simonds, Newman = ALL immediate-impact freshmen on this team if healthy.

So that means those 2016 guys will really contribute in 2017 or 2018.

We're going to redshirt the 4*s?

I'll just sit back and say everything is ok for the next three years regardless of what the product looks like cohesively on the court.

Where did anyone talk about 3 years of patience? You pulled that out of thin air.

Stats are one thing, but the way a group plays together is another.

Just admit you were wrong about Sword and Thomas. You spoke impulsively(which is exactly what I'm taking issue with), was wrong, and are now trying to paint "reality" as something immeasurable to avoid admitting that.

[Jacksondevildog]

To me, Sword isn't better than he was as a freshman. Everyone knows that he can't shoot and they try to limit his penetration toward the rim. Thomas is better. I misspoke about him. He is a little better. He is better defensively than he is offensively and he is supposed to be our best offensive shooter. The problem with talking to you is you never feel that you are wrong and everyone else is right. You can find my post from yesterday (I know you are good at the search feature) about if Ray doesn't sign Newman, he will lose a part of the fan base that still holds out hope. If he signs Newman, I feel that revitalizes the program to an extent and gives us some momentum going into next year. There were only a few people that wanted Cohen fired. They were people that probably still believed that our program and facilities were better than Ole Miss at the time and that we should have hired Raffo and keep Polk to run the camps. It was obvious when a son of a bitch gets thrown out of a baseball game and drives to Meridian to recruit Corey Dickerson from Meridian CC that the guy was a relentless recruiter. He never made excuses about lack of talent. He just said that things were going to be fixed. I never felt a sense or urgency from Ray. It seemed to me as a fan like he felt that it would take 2.5 years to amass a full SEC roster. Cohen would have never had a manager playing SS so we could scrimmage. Most of our fans feel the same way. That's why you see shitty attendance at ALL of our games. I still want Ray to succeed at MSU. I just don't act like things are getting so much better when I see only marginal tectonic plate speed improvement.

[Coach007]

This was the same line Coach34 used for the last 7 years he campaigned for Stans' removal...

Our fans are idiots. Quit trying to make every 40 minutes the be-all, end-all in the big picture. It's not. 3 bad games in a row(all on the road) doesn't make us a terrible team any more than the 5 before that at home made us a great team. Everyone agrees we've got to do better or it'll be time to talk about making a move. That doesn't make right now the time to talk about making a move.

First, I didn't call for Stan's removal. Second, it's 100% not the same thing at all. Stans was winning and Ray is not.

Last, don't act like you are some kind of God fan and everybody is beneath you. You're not.

[coastdoglover]

What a short memory you have. Seems not to long ago Florida was winning National titles and we competed with them consistently. Don't tell me we shouldn't be competing because I do agree the league is not near as good now but it isn't going to matter because we aren't going to sign Newman and even if we do, a one year fix won't fix this mess.

Where in the SEC is basketball not prettymuch at an all time low for?

[msstate7]

To keep or fire ray decision will be obvious by the end of this season imo. No Ray supporters will stand up for him if this season turns into the previous two. No one will listen to the ray detractors if we have a decent year.

[Political Hack]

Does he have a name?

Zuppardo. Thought that was obvious.

[HoopsDawg]

I tried to prepare you guys for this. Here is my post from last week:

"We simply can't make shots."

"If Ray's recruiting was on the same level as his first 2 1/2 classes then I would say it's time to move on. But recruiting is trending up. I like this 2015 class and definitely like the first 2 commits for 2016. Problem is, it's going to be a while before we enjoy the fruits of his labor. Will we be patient?"

Ray inherited a program in a hole. Then he dug the hole a little deeper with those first two recruiting classes. There is nothing that can be done until we get better players in here. Fortunately, Ray's 2015 and 2016 classes look good. Getting rid of Ray after this season wouldn't be what's best for the program.

[tcdog70]

the Juco that can score with either hand either facing or with his back to the basket. He's a poor man's Tyler Hansborough and would've been huge for us this year.

Or we could have signed Pollard