Arnett

[BrunswickDawg]

BTW, even capitalism needs guide rails. Why? Because man is inherently evil and will abuse his power. Free market to go harm anyone you want how you want can't be allowed which is why we have laws and government and governing institutions like NCAA to keep things between the ditches but allow free market between boundaries. We have no boundaries now.

The real issue is that the guardrail - the NCAA- is the one that unleashed this by sticking their head in the sand and ignoring it. Instead of focusing keeping the playing field level from a university support perspective, they cracked down on $100 "crimes" while the business side was raking in Billions. The intent of NIL is correct - to allow athletes to capitalize on their name/fame. If a car dealer wants to support players by giving them access to a vehicle -who cares. If a player can make extra cash by signing autographs - who cares. And who cares where the market sets that rate. Amateur athletes have been allowed those things for a 100 years - hell Wheaties built their brand on supporting amateur athletes. By ignoring it, the NCAA created a system that may crash all of college athletics.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

Yall are acting like the players have an option to go straight to the pros- they don't. The NCAA is a monopoly (Supreme Courts words), therefore they can't just say "were not paying the players" as the players have zero other options.

200k student loans? The average new graduate has 35k in student loans. Let's at least use numbers somewhat close to reality.

Also when I say they're getting "paid 40k" pre NIL that includes said full ride- you don't get to double count the value of the full lride by saying "they should be happy with 40k because they get a full ride and I dont".

And no their full ride isn't paid by the regular engineering students who have to skip meals. Most of the athletic budget comes from sales and donations. In 2018 a total of $18.2B was spent on sports by colleges, 1.5B came from "student fees" (8.2%). And since all NIL is funded by boosters, that ENGR student isn't loosing anything because of NIL. Again, Let's try to use reality as the bases for the debate and not narratives we heard once that sounded good.

And again, "they shouldn't get paid because they get a full scholarship and I dont! Others have it worse so the athletes should t get any better! Is not fair or logical. If you had good benefits at your employer should you be forced to take a lower salary by jealous neighbors? No? So why should we tell a athlete they can't sell an autograph just because some other students don't get a full ride?

"College os about school!"- oh please, it hasn't been that for a while. Not at the big schools where the potential pro players go anyway. To a typical 4* football or basketball player it's just a stop on the road to the pros. Hell, the college "courses" these kids take are a joke and we all know it. If you REALLY cared about keeping college focused on academics, you'd want to disband the athletic department entirely. But you don't, you just don't like the cheap labor not being so cheap anymore.

Again, nothing is more authoritarian than telling an individual they can't sign a piece of paper and sell it. Individual rights Trump what's convenient for my preferred sports team

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

BTW, even capitalism needs guide rails. Why? Because man is inherently evil and will abuse his power. Free market to go harm anyone you want how you want can't be allowed which is why we have laws and government and governing institutions like NCAA to keep things between the ditches but allow free market between boundaries. We have no boundaries now.

The "guide rail" NIL eliminated was the income cap. Saying "athletes are only allowed to have a scholarship and this set list of other benefits!" is the equivalent of the Govt saying "No doctor at any cospital shall make more than $X regardless of whether or not someone is willing to pay them more!"

Do you want compensation caps for Drs, Lawyers, accountants, small business owners? No? So let's quit being hypocritical about this same guardrail being removed from college athletes.

[confucius say]

Lot of hypocrisy in here from "small Govt" pro free market conservatives.

"They should make what soldiers make"- what in the big govt micromanaging the economy is this?? And why shouldn't YOU also make as much as a soldier? Why shouldn't pros make as much as a soldier, or the Apple CEO?

"These athletes are the wealthiest people on campus!"- statistically athletes come from VERY poor backgrounds. Baseball kids often come from money, but football and basketball are often single parent trailer park kids. And with school and their sport it's very difficult to find time for a "normal" job to help out.

"They should be happy with the full ride!!"- wait, they don't deserve the freedom to make more money because you think they make enough already? How is that any different than AOC saying CEO compensation should be capped? Tuition+the other benefits athletes get is about 40k of value; if they should be happy with that, why should you be allowed to earn more than 40k? Why subject this small subset of the population to an income cap when you'd feel outraged if you had an income cap placed on you?

"They can go pro in cutting grass if they don't like the income caps I'm impising on them!" - Again, you'd never want this logic applied anywhere else. If someone came to you and said "were capping your career field at 40k income, if you don't like that go cut grass" you'd be rightfully pissed off. You'd also say it's Big Govt meddling in the free market, and you'd be right.

At the end of the day, athletes are people. And people should have rights to their own name, image, and likeness. What's a more basic individual right than that? Telling someone "you're not allowed to sign a piece of paper and sell it" is about as anti personal freedom as you can get

They are. But what college athletes and their lobbying arm want is to be able to dictate to a voluntary organization (NCAA) the organization's own rules. That is as anti free market as you get. "We don't like your rules but instead of starting our own organization and competing against you and letting the free market decide which is better, we want you to change your rules." That's not free market.

Nobody is saying athletes should not be able to be paid for their NIL. Have at it. But go play NAIA, NJCAA, XFL, or start some other league that allows it. That's how the free market works.

The way out now is for the P5 to break off, start it's own league with its own rules that promote parity, and compete against the NCAA (thereby eliminating antitrust concerns).

[confucius say]

I think you mean outrageous not outstanding.

This commie is mad that capitalism has ruled and dictated that people get paid for the compensation they provide.

Sure the things he listed or nice. Guess what else is nice? Billions in revenue. Capitalism came in and said that if you're making all this money then the workers who make it can profit off of it too. Have a free market and let it play out.

Anyone mad about college players getting more money is anti capitalism. Period. The end.

Imagine if welders across the country had to go work in communities where for four years, they refined their welding skills. They get free lodging, food, and "tuition." In exchange the company running it gets tons of free labor. The welders all get paid the same amount regardless of skill. They're capped at the schools' discretion as no free market is allowed to offer higher dollars.

If that sounds like paradise for you... go ask someone you actually trust to tell you what kind of system that is cause you won't like the answer that I give.

Aside from it not being capitalism as explained above, if it is "labor" as you claim then that's a completely different situation. Taxes come into play and athletes are either bound by a contract and have to stay at a school or are at will employees. I would actually support that model, but so far the judiciary has said it is not "labor."

[confucius say]

This is what I was alluding to in regards to the average fan and NIL

But the model has not been the average fan. It's been big donors. 20k people paying $15 a month is sustainable and is more money than we get yearly now.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

They are. But what college athletes and their lobbying arm want is to be able to dictate to a voluntary organization (NCAA) the organization's own rules. That is as anti free market as you get. "We don't like your rules but instead of starting our own organization and competing against you and letting the free market decide which is better, we want you to change your rules." That's not free market.

Nobody is saying athletes should not be able to be paid for their NIL. Have at it. But go play NAIA, NJCAA, XFL, or start some other league that allows it. That's how the free market works.

The way out now is for the P5 to break off, start it's own league with its own rules that promote parity, and compete against the NCAA (thereby eliminating antitrust concerns).

It's not anti free market, its akin to a union. The workers (players) got tired of working for 40k when for some of them their actual value is in the millions.

Moreover, the (mostly conservative) Supreme Court ruled the NCAA IS A MONOPOLY, which legitimately the kind of thing we do need "guide rails" against. If you do not believe the NCAA is a monopoly, please take it up with the SC. The judges own opinions are public for you to read. Kavanagh in particular tore the NCAA a new one for how bad their legal arguments were (EDIT: Just looked it up it was a 9-0 vote)

[Tater]

You like others miss the big point - college is not pro sports. Go make all you want in free market. Im all for it. If you want to make this pro sports then yes I'm fine with it all but that is the main point, it aint supposed to be. That is why the NCAA has existed all these years. The advertisments still say amateur sports becuase 99% never make a pro career.

Wealthiest on campus - ah yes. Do they have 200K loan bills when they graduate? No Every other kid except for those that worked their tail off and are talented enough to get some scholarships but they don't get access to best meals on campus, best training facilities, clothes, perks out the rear end. I know eng students have only got to eat a handful of times a week. How do you think those million dollar facilities are paid for?

No one is stopping them from making whatever money they want but if they want to get a college education then a free/expensive ride is paid for to play a fun sport and be idolized.
Why should I be allowed to make 40K a year? Because I ain't getting a free ride to college. They can do the same. No one has taken anything from anyone.

You get what you get paid becuase the market will pay it. You will never earn top dollar mowing grass compared to a doctor, engineer, lawyer, etc. Stupid example you gave.

I don't have a problem with NIL but all that has been done is a money scandal buying players. They wanted to keep the playing field even since it was amateur sports but now it is pro sports to the highest bidder with no rules.

Real simple - college/amateur sports or pro sports. That is the issue. Got nothing to do with freedoms taken away. They all got freedom.

The problem is you bought the lie that is amateur sports.

If it truly is amateur, then the colleges shouldn't be making surplus money off of it. College football is a business. In an ideal world it's not, but in the real world it is.

As such, the free market dictates businesses should pay employees market wages or get poached. There's not a debate for you to stand on. This is cut and dry.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

The problem is you bought the lie that is amateur sports.

If it truly is amateur, then the colleges shouldn't be making surplus money off of it. College football is a business. In an ideal world it's not, but in the real world it is.

As such, the free market dictates businesses should pay employees market wages or get poached. There's not a debate for you to stand on. This is cut and dry.

Well said! I'd also like to add that IF we want colleges to be a place to "focus on academics", then why do we allow sports at all? Why should we be ok with a student spending all that time getting ready for football season when they could be studying? And why would we be OK with the university spending $92M a year on athletics if the university should be focused on education?

Why can the university spend so much on sports, the players spend so much time on sports, the players get slightly compensated via tuition, the players take BS classes designed to be easy to pass, BUT BUT BUT if but the player makes a free market wage on top of their tuition THAT is a mockery of education? What?

[confucius say]

It's not anti free market, its akin to a union. The workers (players) got tired of working for 40k when for some of them their actual value is in the millions.

Moreover, the (mostly conservative) Supreme Court ruled the NCAA IS A MONOPOLY, which legitimately the kind of thing we do need "guide rails" against. If you do not believe the NCAA is a monopoly, please take it up with the SC. The judges own opinions are public for you to read. Kavanagh in particular tore the NCAA a new one for how bad their legal arguments were (EDIT: Just looked it up it was a 9-0 vote)

I've read Alston many times and spoken on it. First, SCOTUS did not have to rule whether or not the NCAA is a monopoly under antitrust principles. The NCAA conceded that point. I personally thought that was both stupid and incorrect, as there are several other leagues where players can go play under a different set of rules, including at the collegiate level (NAIA, NJCAA, XFL, UFL).

Second, Alston's holding was very narrow and doesn't allow anything close to what is going on now. It actually said the NCAA is free to put restrictions in place regarding NIL and that benefits must be "education related." The NCAA is just scared to enforce anything for fear of lawsuits-another terrible decision.

Third, people on your side of the argument, whose opinions I respect, keep referring to players as workers and labor. I think moving to that model is a way to solve this, but so far the judiciary and the NLRB has not gone that route. Doing so would prohibit immediate-eligibility transfers and solve a ton of this.

Fourth, players have almost zero value outside of the brand on the front of their jersey. If Dart was playing for millsaps, he'd be worth nothing. The value is in the schools due to the passion of fans for that school. Players have almost zero stand alone value.

[confucius say]

The problem is you bought the lie that is amateur sports.

If it truly is amateur, then the colleges shouldn't be making surplus money off of it. College football is a business. In an ideal world it's not, but in the real world it is.

As such, the free market dictates businesses should pay employees market wages or get poached. There's not a debate for you to stand on. This is cut and dry.

But college athletes are not employees. If they were, they would be paid by an employer and either bound by the terms of an employment contract (no transfers) or at will (fired at any time).

The NIL issue (getting paid by boosters) and the "athletes are employees" issue (getting paid by the universities) are separate issues imo. But fixing the latter and making them employees could help solve the former because they would be getting paid primarily by the school instead of collectives.

[confucius say]

Well said! I'd also like to add that IF we want colleges to be a place to "focus on academics", then why do we allow sports at all? Why should we be ok with a student spending all that time getting ready for football season when they could be studying? And why would we be OK with the university spending $92M a year on athletics if the university should be focused on education?

Why can the university spend so much on sports, the players spend so much time on sports, the players get slightly compensated via tuition, the players take BS classes designed to be easy to pass, BUT BUT BUT if but the player makes a free market wage on top of their tuition THAT is a mockery of education? What?

In my job, I'm not free to go make a "market wage" as a spokesperson for XYZ company. I'd be fired. This is why athletes don't want to be labeled employees. They'd be bound by a contract or fired as at will employees.

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

In my job, I'm not free to go make a "market wage" as a spokesperson for XYZ company. I'd be fired. This is why athletes don't want to be labeled employees. They'd be bound by a contract or fired as at will employees.

It depends on the terms of your contract. My work contract says nothing about being fired if I did an add for a local car dealership, for example. They can fire me at any time for any reason but only if they believed a 2nd job interfered with my job would they think to fire me. All that said, players can get "fired" currently. The head coach can bench them, encourage them to transfer, etc if the coach doesn't like their behavior, including NIL.

Of course, if I make 50k on the side and it didn't affect my work, my employer would be extatic! I'd be less likely to bug them for raises if I made more elsewhere supplementing what they paid me.

The immediate eligibility issue is an NCAA created one and has nothing to do with NIL. Players used to sign up for 4 year "contracts", and they could leave early for the pros or change "employers" but face a fine (sit out a year). That's all fine as contracts are a part of free market negotiations. Ots the capping of income below free market rates I take issue with

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

But college athletes are not employees. If they were, they would be paid by an employer and either bound by the terms of an employment contract (no transfers) or at will (fired at any time).

The NIL issue (getting paid by boosters) and the "athletes are employees" issue (getting paid by the universities) are separate issues imo. But fixing the latter and making them employees could help solve the former because they would be getting paid primarily by the school instead of collectives.

It's semantics to differentiate the Univeristy from the Boosters, as they work together for the common goal. If players got paid through universities all the NIL money would instead get donated to the athletic department. The players compensation (tuition+NIL) is essential coming from the same "company", if you will.

[Cowbell]

The only way to balance NIL is to have binding contracts that include performance clauses and set a cap.

[Cooterpoot]

But the model has not been the average fan. It's been big donors. 20k people paying $15 a month is sustainable and is more money than we get yearly now.

It's not happening though. And it won't happen. That 20K fans is a Pipedream to start with. The regular booster only will do so much. It's about business and that includes the tv contracts. The price of players is going to fluctuate like the economy too.

[Tater]

i know Selmon has personally emailed me back about the baseball situation Cohen never Did.

John emailed me back with personal replies on two occasions. One when I said the Moorhead Bowl game display was a disgrace. One when we wore the MoverS on the football helmets. But I also emailed from a msstate.edu email.

[Turfdawg67]

And to think I clicked on a post titled "Arnett".

[memsu06]

I think Arnett is an up and coming Nick Saban or Kirby Smart.

Their recruiting has been phenomenal so far.

I'm looking forward to surprising some people this year.

[Turfdawg67]

I think Arnett is an up and coming Nick Saban or Kirby Smart.

Their recruiting has been phenomenal so far.

I'm looking forward to surprising some people this year.

Ok... wow! After one game as a head coach. Ummm, hope you're right...