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Thread: Lemonis was never prepared for this

  1. #41
    Senior Member KB21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer View Post
    Not luck at all.

    Lucky Championship = You skid into Hoover with a 14-16 record, You win a bunch rain-out games in a Miami regional, You play a Buddikha Alabama team in Omaha Game-1, Your top-seed is Arkansas (Omaha Choke Arists), You play a limited cinderella team (Oklahoma for Example) in the Final.

    MSU won 20 SEC games. Won a National Seed. Had a Super Hot Notre Dame to beat, Had Texas in the Omaha Bracket, Had a Super Hot Virginia to Beat, Then COVID knee-capped the Limited team (NCSU) and MSU had to play a National Powerhouse (Vandy)
    Yep.
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  2. #42
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    What is amazing is that you always wonder how much time winning a national title buys a HC at certain sports at different schools.

    I never thought it would be less than two years at MSU for a coach who won a national title in a big 3 sport. I mean, don't get me wrong, losing 17 straight SEC games is like one of those terrible hypotheticals people come up after we make it to the CWS.

    You know, "would you go 0-30 in the SEC next year in exchange for winning the title this year?" I think everyone always says, yes i'll take it and won't fire the coach as long as they bring home the national title for our school, especially in baseball where we have been so damn close.

    Well - we are basically living that hypothetical and its amazing how quickly people forget the title. Now, I am not making any excuses, i mean at this point I think if he ends up missing a regional we go 10-20 in the SEC i think its a pretty obvious move, but what will be funny is that it appears our friends to the north just can't help but copy us and are trying to go 10-20 (at best) in the SEC after winning the title. I'll be interested in how long until the shine wears off there.

  3. #43
    Senior Member MetEdDawg's Avatar
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    Anyone that thinks it was a fluke to win a national championship is stupid. You don't fluke your way to that even with talent.

    Look at the NCAA Tournament. Talent alone doesn't win you games. You've got to have some talent but you have to have a lot of other things including coaching.

    Lemonis and staff coached their asses off in the championship year. Right now they aren't. This team looks unprepared mentally to compete. When you come from a culture where you don't win championships, that first one can mess with the mentality of younger guys or guys that didn't have to put in max effort to get that. I think of Tanner Allen, Jake Mangum, and others and the amount of work and sweat equity those guys had in the program to get us to that level. Now these guys are living off the legend they created.

    These guys haven't really sniffed that and I don't think Lemonis has done a good job of ramping up the toughness needed post championship when you are always the hunted team. Teams bring it to us every game now and you have to adjust your coaching to that. He hasn't and neither has Foxhall. Watch our pitching staff and tell me they are a mentally tough group of people. That's where we lack right now and Lemonis has to fix that program wide.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Commercecomet24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer View Post
    Not luck at all.

    Lucky Championship = You skid into Hoover with a 14-16 record, You win a bunch rain-out games in a Miami regional, You play a Buddikha Alabama team in Omaha Game-1, Your top-seed is Arkansas (Omaha Choke Arists), You play a limited cinderella team (Oklahoma for Example) in the Final.

    MSU won 20 SEC games. Won a National Seed. Had a Super Hot Notre Dame to beat, Had Texas in the Omaha Bracket, Had a Super Hot Virginia to Beat, Then COVID knee-capped the Limited team (NCSU) and MSU had to play a National Powerhouse (Vandy)
    Now this is a great post!

    Have some rep!

  5. #45
    Senior Member KB21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetEdDawg View Post
    Anyone that thinks it was a fluke to win a national championship is stupid. You don't fluke your way to that even with talent.

    Look at the NCAA Tournament. Talent alone doesn't win you games. You've got to have some talent but you have to have a lot of other things including coaching.

    Lemonis and staff coached their asses off in the championship year. Right now they aren't. This team looks unprepared mentally to compete. When you come from a culture where you don't win championships, that first one can mess with the mentality of younger guys or guys that didn't have to put in max effort to get that. I think of Tanner Allen, Jake Mangum, and others and the amount of work and sweat equity those guys had in the program to get us to that level. Now these guys are living off the legend they created.

    These guys haven't really sniffed that and I don't think Lemonis has done a good job of ramping up the toughness needed post championship when you are always the hunted team. Teams bring it to us every game now and you have to adjust your coaching to that. He hasn't and neither has Foxhall. Watch our pitching staff and tell me they are a mentally tough group of people. That's where we lack right now and Lemonis has to fix that program wide.
    This team's mentality right now is one where they are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. When one bad thing happens, it snowballs and gets bigger. It's like they are in quick sand, and no matter how hard they try to get out, they keep sinking. We aren't seeing the Preston Johnson type of mentality where he waves bye bye to the ball and then refocuses.
    #AirRaidForever!!#SwingYourSword!!#FireArnett

  6. #46
    Senior Member msstate7's Avatar
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    I think all baseball championships have a certain level of luck. The braves' WS was with one of their worst teams of late. I don't think state's championship team was our best team ever. What doesn't involve luck is putting yourself in the best position to succeed in the postseason. This is something we did quite well our championship year.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Commercecomet24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB21 View Post
    This team's mentality right now is one where they are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. When one bad thing happens, it snowballs and gets bigger. It's like they are in quick sand, and no matter how hard they try to get out, they keep sinking. We aren't seeing the Preston Johnson type of mentality where he waves bye bye to the ball and then refocuses.
    Yeah you can see it. They start really pressing and tightening up when something adverse happens. During 2021 i didn't even worry when we got behind because we alwyays found a way to win or to at least put ourselves in a position to win late in the game. Baseball is so mental especially with young players and they're basically teenagers and learning to overcome adversity and move on is something you have to learn. And you're right there is a mental toughness that's required to do that.

    ETA I will say this the players seem to be putting out the effort but that mental aspect can outweigh the physical.
    Last edited by Commercecomet24; 03-27-2023 at 03:23 PM.

  8. #48
    Senior Member KB21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    I think all baseball championships have a certain level of luck. The braves' WS was with one of their worst teams of late. I don't think state's championship team was our best team ever. What doesn't involve luck is putting yourself in the best position to succeed in the postseason. This is something we did quite well our championship year.
    The 2016 was as talented as any team we have had at MSU as well, and they lost to the hot hand in the Supers. That team was definitely the best team in the country that year.
    #AirRaidForever!!#SwingYourSword!!#FireArnett

  9. #49
    Senior Member KB21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commercecomet24 View Post
    Yeah you can see it. They start really pressing and tightening up whe something adverse happens. During 2021 i didn't even worry when we got behing becuase we alwyays found a way to win or to at least put ourselves in a position to win late in the game. Baseball is so mental especially with young players and they're basically teenagers and learning to overcome adversity and move on is something you have to learn. And you're right it is a mental toughness that's required to do that.

    ETA I will say this the players seem to be putting out the effort but that mental aspect can outweigh the physical.
    Yeah, and I don't think that mental toughness edge can be attributed to just Tanner Allen and Rowdy Jordan.
    #AirRaidForever!!#SwingYourSword!!#FireArnett

  10. #50
    Senior Member Commercecomet24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB21 View Post
    Yeah, and I don't think that mental toughness edge can be attributed to just Tanner Allen and Rowdy Jordan.
    100% agree on that! It permeated that whole 2021 team. Just like anything in baseball these things are contagious and you have players that push each other to be better and of course the opposite is true as well, when things go bad that gets contagious too.

    I heard Bill Belichik mic'ed up on the sideline and I think it was 2009. The saints were blowing them out and he was telling Brady toward the end of the game that the team just wasn't mentally tough and he couldn't get them to perform to the level needed. After that season he pretty much flipped the roster.

  11. #51
    Senior Member KB21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commercecomet24 View Post
    100% agree on that! It permeated that whole 2021 team. Just like anything in baseball these things are contagious and you have players that push each other to be better and of course the opposite is true as well, when things go bad that gets contagious too.

    I heard Bill Belichik mic'ed up on the sideline and I think it was 2009. The saints were blowing them out and he was telling Brady toward the end of the game that the team just wasn't mentally tough and he couldn't get them to perform to the level needed. After that season he pretty much flipped the roster.
    And we still have guys who were contributors on that team. Luke Hancock, Kellum Clark, Lane Forsythe, Cade Smith (not contributing this year due to sickness), KC Hunt (was more of an observer on that team)...etc. I just can't figure out why things have gone sideways.
    #AirRaidForever!!#SwingYourSword!!#FireArnett

  12. #52
    Senior Member Commercecomet24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB21 View Post
    And we still have guys who were contributors on that team. Luke Hancock, Kellum Clark, Lane Forsythe, Cade Smith (not contributing this year due to sickness), KC Hunt (was more of an observer on that team)...etc. I just can't figure out why things have gone sideways.
    I'm right there with you. I've been in baseball for years and I've never seen anything quite like this. I keep waiting for us to just go on a tear but it seems like the trains headed the other way.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commercecomet24 View Post
    Yeah you can see it. They start really pressing and tightening up whe something adverse happens. During 2021 i didn't even worry when we got behing becuase we alwyays found a way to win or to at least put ourselves in a position to win late in the game. Baseball is so mental especially with young players and they're basically teenagers and learning to overcome adversity and move on is something you have to learn. And you're right it is a mental toughness that's required to do that.

    ETA I will say this the players seem to be putting out the effort but that mental aspect can outweigh the physical.
    Good points. I don't think one of our historically very good fielders makes about 4 errors over 2 games if we are not in this terrible funk. No doubt that they are in a very bad spot mentally also. Need a few SEC wins asap! Hail State!

  14. #54
    Senior Member KB21's Avatar
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    This makes me think so much of 2019 in football where, went things went wrong, it went badly wrong.

    I mean, what's it going to take to get these pitchers to just relax and throw strikes. Guys like Dohm, Holcombe, Clintje, and Loftin have the stuff that even if they give up contact over the plate, they aren't going to get hit that bad. Heck, I think Loftin has given up just a .149 BAA on the year while he's walked 24 batters in 24 some odd innings. Clintje has a .165 BAA but has 15 walks in 20 innings. Teams are hitting Holcombe at around .185 and Dohm at around .200, so the issue isn't these guys giving up hits and loud contact. It's that they just aren't consistently throwing strikes.
    #AirRaidForever!!#SwingYourSword!!#FireArnett

  15. #55
    Senior Member ScottH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHildreth3 View Post
    Personally, I think Cohen took too much of Lemon's best friend advice. McDonnell wanted to get his good ol friend a big gig job. We gave that to him. He wasn't at the level that STATE needs. Take a look at his record prior to joining:

    2015 Indiana 35-24 12-10 6th NCAA Regional
    2016 Indiana 32-24 15-9 T-3rd
    2017 Indiana 34-24-2 14-9-1 6th NCAA Regional
    2018 Indiana 40-19 14-9 5th NCAA Regional

    Thoughts...
    Missing from above - The 3 years prior to Lemonis Indiana finished 1,1 &2 in the Big 10. Indiana regressed under Lemonis.

  16. #56
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    Lemonis favorite song. And apparently Biancos also

    https://youtu.be/7HfkSzsyh1E

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer View Post
    Not luck at all.

    Lucky Championship = You skid into Hoover with a 14-16 record, You win a bunch rain-out games in a Miami regional, You play a Buddikha Alabama team in Omaha Game-1, Your top-seed is Arkansas (Omaha Choke Arists), You play a limited cinderella team (Oklahoma for Example) in the Final.

    MSU won 20 SEC games. Won a National Seed. Had a Super Hot Notre Dame to beat, Had Texas in the Omaha Bracket, Had a Super Hot Virginia to Beat, Then COVID knee-capped the Limited team (NCSU) and MSU had to play a National Powerhouse (Vandy)
    We also played 7 games against national seeds in CWS. It is hard to win but the contrast to our NC is OM last year. Last team in and didn't play a national seed even one game to win NC. Only team to ever do that. That is about as close to luck as you get but even then they had to play and earn it.

  18. #58
    Senior Member StarkVegasSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB21 View Post
    And we still have guys who were contributors on that team. Luke Hancock, Kellum Clark, Lane Forsythe, Cade Smith (not contributing this year due to sickness), KC Hunt (was more of an observer on that team)...etc. I just can't figure out why things have gone sideways.
    We do not have an alpha. None of those guys are alpha in your face guys. I believe Bryce Chance could be that type of guy but it is hard to tell since we are so bad.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    We do not have an alpha. None of those guys are alpha in your face guys. I believe Bryce Chance could be that type of guy but it is hard to tell since we are so bad.
    A couple of the freshmen have that.
    But it's hard for freshmen to take that role.

    90% of this just boils down to huge misses on pitcher evaluation and lack of development. And injuries to Cade, Simmons, and Augur

  20. #60
    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commercecomet24 View Post
    I'm right there with you. I've been in baseball for years and I've never seen anything quite like this. I keep waiting for us to just go on a tear but it seems like the trains headed the other way.
    To me it all goes back to pitching. If you have a poor pitching program it can go south very quickly. You have to be able to pitch to win in baseball.

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