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Thread: WTF Lemonis?- Deep Thoughts From Todd

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    WTF Lemonis?- Deep Thoughts From Todd

    I'm going to say what I'm going say and try to do it without being redundant because most of what is being discussed is what I'm seeing too.

    MSU baseball has a standard and we have a formula for success. We have talented players that will attack you and play their asses off for nine innings and do everything it takes to win. Not this team- historically. Tanner Allen, Jake Mangum, Landon Sims, Ethan Small, Brent Rooker, Adam Frazier, Kendall Graveman, Brooks Bryan, Will Clark, Jeff Brantley, Palmeiro, Showalter, Jocko Potts, Brantley Jones- and etc. And as far as this team I still think we have some guys who have that in them- Hunter Hines, Luke Hancock, Nate Dohm among others.

    But the problem is playing hard and winning and solid baseball fundamentals has been clipped by this coaching staff in favor of loyalty and relying too much on baseball analytics.

    The root of our problems goes back to pitching. We should have gotten rid of Scott Foxhall last year. We should get rid of him now. I've seen this coming for awhile. His approach to pitching is too one size fits all and you can not do that with pitchers because they are human beings and are all different. Pitching like Nolan Ryan works great for Nolan Ryan- and Jacob DeGrom and Landon Sims. But not every pitcher in the HOF pitched like Nolan Ryan- Greg Maddux, Whitey Ford, and Tom Glavine are in and were great but had to do it differently. What Foxhall is doing is trying to make everyone the same guy and the results are not good for those that simply do not have that ability. Some pitchers have to pitch down- and if you ask them to live up in the zone they're going to get hit. Or since they know that they can't live up in the zone they try to get a hitter to chase. That results in balls, getting behind in the count, and walks and eventually they have to throw something hittable and then we get lit up. And then to make matters worse he sits on his ass while the pitchers rot and then their confidence is eventually destroyed to where we can't even really use them. Or he puts struggling guys into impossible situations and then it predictably doesn't work. On top of that add in all of the "minor injuries"- not Tommy John- guys just missing a month here and there. We have pitchers whose mechanics are all over the place- and they simply rarely make any progress at all and typically regress.

    On top of that we suck at holding runners on which makes the catchers look bad and then the defense is standing around and having to attend to runners- it makes it much more difficult to concentrate and it's affecting our defense as well. It's starting to affect our offense because what the hell is the point when you have to score 10 runs to even have a chance?

    I think the only chance that Lemonis has to survive is to fire Foxhall ASAP. And in season. I don't think this is going to turn around now organically. The only chance is to do something drastic and firing Foxhall is the best and really only chance Lemonis has to survive. It will be a wake up call and a fresh voice for the pitchers. They need someone that can at least somewhat assess their strengths and weaknesses and play off of their strengths. That in and of itself will make a huge difference I assure you.

    Defense is the second most pressing issue. Catchers- I know that one knee is the analytical thing to do but NOT WHEN THE WINNING RUN IS ON THIRD BASE!!!!!! WTF????????????? Our catchers are going to be issues all year no matter what but we can at LEAST use good fundamental common sense. Stealing a strike doesn't matter if the game is over because you couldn't keep the ball in front of you. Alford just needs to sit. Let Hujsack, Chester, and Mershon fight it out. We're Ok everywhere else in general. But if I was Lemonis I would be repping these guys to death everyday on defense.

    I think hitting will get better once we're more competitive IF we make those changes.

    This is how I would play it if I were in Lemonis's shoes.

    Fri- Loo with Dohm following
    Sat- Cade with Gartman following and Nixon or Hunt closing
    Sun- Holcombe with Ynetema following and then some combination of Dohm, Hunt, and Nixon based on their status that weekend.

    Tues- Loftin

    C- Going to have to be Highfill
    1B- Hines- Hancock if his back isn't too bad
    2B- Larry
    3B- Hujsack
    SS- Forsythe
    LF- Downs
    CF- Ledbetter
    RF- Kellum
    DH- Chance

    If Hancock is healthy then things change.

    As I've said I can't see the boosters putting up with this for long and even though I haven't heard anything I would be surprised if we don't see some major changes soon.

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    Senior Member StarkVegasSteve's Avatar
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    If we fire Fox now, which I would say is 50/50 at best, I don't know who you go get because here's the one thing none of are considering when we throw these names out there. If Lemonis cans Fox that is him admitting that his time is running out and this is the last ditch effort. I doubt he would be comfortable placing his future in the hands of Jay Powell, Roy Oswalt, Russ McNickle, or whoever it may be. I doubt he knows any of those guys on more than just a handshake level. And this isn't like Cohen being the AD where he can tell Lemonis this is what you need to do. Selmon never played the game so he's not going to know who to go to or who you could trust. And Polk has been out of the game too long. I don't think you can take his opinion into things.

    The only other option I see is let Kyle handle the pitchers, but that's not a great repair on the situation either. We're in a bad situation and I don't know that there's a good answer out of it. There's MASSIVE risk any way you go. If you keep Fox, it's probably going to be the same, but if you get rid of him and bring in another guy you may be filling these kids heads with even more information and just end up overloading them. I just don't see a scenario where Lemonis feels comfortable enough letting Fox go. Lemonis may just have to take over all pitching decisions and let Kyle and the catchers call the game. Let Lemonis do all mound visits and pitching changes and basically just strip Fox of any coaching duties other than being a babysitter for their bullpens.
    Last edited by StarkVegasSteve; 03-19-2023 at 10:54 PM.

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    It?s utterly amazing the position we are in right now considering where this program was two years ago.

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    Senior Member Cooterpoot's Avatar
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    Give me:
    Fri- Loo
    Sat- Dohm
    Sun- Cade

    Loftin/Gartman midweek

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    Senior Member Cooterpoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    If we fire Fox now, which I would say is 50/50 at best, I don't know who you go get because here's the one thing none of are considering when we throw these names out there. If Lemonis cans Fox that is him admitting that his time is running out and this is the last ditch effort. I doubt he would be comfortable placing his future in the hands of Jay Powell, Roy Oswalt, Russ McNickle, or whoever it may be. I doubt he knows any of those guys on more than just a handshake level. And this isn't like Cohen being the AD where he can tell Lemonis this is what you need to do. Selmon never played the game so he's not going to know who to go to or who you could trust. And Polk has been out of the game too long. I don't think you can take his opinion into things.

    The only other option I see is let Kyle handle the pitchers, but that's not a great repair on the situation either. We're in a bad situation and I don't know that there's a good answer out of it. There's MASSIVE risk any way you go. If you keep Fox, it's probably going to be the same, but if you get rid of him and bring in another guy you may be filling these kids heads with even more information and just end up overloading them. I just don't see a scenario where Lemonis feels comfortable enough letting Fox go. Lemonis may just have to take over all pitching decisions and let Kyle and the catchers call the game. Let Lemonis do all mound visits and pitching changes and basically just strip Fox of any coaching duties other than being a babysitter for their bullpens.
    You forget Lemonis has a boss. Said boss can demand Lem fire Foxy. And he absolutely should if Lem doesn't have the sack. Otherwise, they all get fired end of season. This staff is done here barring a miracle.
    Last edited by Cooterpoot; 03-19-2023 at 11:10 PM.

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    Should we pitch Cjinjte/Dohm on Saturday or even Sunday to increase our chances of picking up the win with them?

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    If we fire Fox now, which I would say is 50/50 at best, I don't know who you go get because here's the one thing none of are considering when we throw these names out there. If Lemonis cans Fox that is him admitting that his time is running out and this is the last ditch effort. I doubt he would be comfortable placing his future in the hands of Jay Powell, Roy Oswalt, Russ McNickle, or whoever it may be. I doubt he knows any of those guys on more than just a handshake level. And this isn't like Cohen being the AD where he can tell Lemonis this is what you need to do. Selmon never played the game so he's not going to know who to go to or who you could trust. And Polk has been out of the game too long. I don't think you can take his opinion into things.

    The only other option I see is let Kyle handle the pitchers, but that's not a great repair on the situation either. We're in a bad situation and I don't know that there's a good answer out of it. There's MASSIVE risk any way you go. If you keep Fox, it's probably going to be the same, but if you get rid of him and bring in another guy you may be filling these kids heads with even more information and just end up overloading them. I just don't see a scenario where Lemonis feels comfortable enough letting Fox go. Lemonis may just have to take over all pitching decisions and let Kyle and the catchers call the game. Let Lemonis do all mound visits and pitching changes and basically just strip Fox of any coaching duties other than being a babysitter for their bullpens.
    You're right it may not work. But we know Foxhall isn't going to work.

    I watch a lot of MLB baseball and all I can go off of is this- when a situation like this happens in MLB the change is generally positive and things get better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quaoarsking View Post
    Should we pitch Cjinjte/Dohm on Saturday or even Sunday to increase our chances of picking up the win with them?
    If we keep Dohm in the pen we can use him when we need him within reason- realistically two of the three games Fri, Sat, or Sun max. That's the biggest reason why I want to keep him in the bullpen and not put him in the rotation. Loo I think is good enough to give us a chance on Friday. I'd rather use Dohm two games than one for 6-7 IP. Getting Cade and Nixon back will help a lot too.

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    Senior Member StarkVegasSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    You're right it may not work. But we know Foxhall isn't going to work.

    I watch a lot of MLB baseball and all I can go off of is this- when a situation like this happens in MLB the change is generally positive and things get better.



    If we keep Dohm in the pen we can use him when we need him within reason- realistically two of the three games Fri, Sat, or Sun max. That's the biggest reason why I want to keep him in the bullpen and not put him in the rotation. Loo I think is good enough to give us a chance on Friday. I'd rather use Dohm two games than one for 6-7 IP. Getting Cade and Nixon back will help a lot too.
    Unfortunately for us, it's a lot easier to do it at that level. I mean MLB teams not only have a pitching coach and a bullpen coach, they also have multiple organizational levels of coaches that they could bring up. We don't have anything like that. We are in agreement that Fox needs to go, but I don't know that there is a good answer for what to do. And I'll be honest, I don't think there is.

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    Senior Member StarkVegasSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooterpoot View Post
    You forget Lemonis has a boss. Said boss can demand Lem fire Foxy. And he absolutely should if Lem doesn't have the sack. Otherwise, they all get fired end of season. This staff is done here barring a miracle.

    No I said that. But as I said he doesn't have the connections that Cohen did. Cohen could've suggested someone in the interim. Selmon probably doesn't know who all the baseball coaches in the conference are. I mean if he's telling Chris to get rid of Fox and not offering any type of solution then we might as well just keep Fox. You can't just say fire him and figure it out, but if you don't figure it out you're fired as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooterpoot View Post
    Give me:
    Fri- Loo
    Sat- Dohm
    Sun- Cade

    Loftin/Gartman midweek
    I'd go:
    Fri- Lo
    Sat- Dohm
    Sun- Holcombe

    Those are our 3 best arms. Hopefully Nixon is back ready to close 2 games.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    Unfortunately for us, it's a lot easier to do it at that level. I mean MLB teams not only have a pitching coach and a bullpen coach, they also have multiple organizational levels of coaches that they could bring up. We don't have anything like that. We are in agreement that Fox needs to go, but I don't know that there is a good answer for what to do. And I'll be honest, I don't think there is.
    We have a lot more connections than most college baseball programs. And we have the ability to bring in someone competent.

    If it doesn't work it doesn't work. Getting rid of Foxhall now is our best chance to turn it around. With the talent we have I don't think turning it around is out of the realm of possibility.

    I would rather try and it not work than sit here and follow something we know has zero chance of working and is only going to get worse.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    No I said that. But as I said he doesn't have the connections that Cohen did. Cohen could've suggested someone in the interim. Selmon probably doesn't know who all the baseball coaches in the conference are. I mean if he's telling Chris to get rid of Fox and not offering any type of solution then we might as well just keep Fox. You can't just say fire him and figure it out, but if you don't figure it out you're fired as well.
    Our major boosters and baseball alumni are going to be the ones handling this more than Selmon. He'll carry out the marching orders when they're ready.

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    Senior Member Saltydog's Avatar
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    Let Jay Powell finish the year.........He probably wouldn't but who knows.......What's Roy Oswalt doing?
    "The QB and the receiver weren't on the same page there, but hey its only week eleven". (Jack Cristil)

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    If we fire Fox now, which I would say is 50/50 at best, I don't know who you go get because here's the one thing none of are considering when we throw these names out there. If Lemonis cans Fox that is him admitting that his time is running out and this is the last ditch effort. I doubt he would be comfortable placing his future in the hands of Jay Powell, Roy Oswalt, Russ McNickle, or whoever it may be. I doubt he knows any of those guys on more than just a handshake level. And this isn't like Cohen being the AD where he can tell Lemonis this is what you need to do. Selmon never played the game so he's not going to know who to go to or who you could trust. And Polk has been out of the game too long. I don't think you can take his opinion into things.

    The only other option I see is let Kyle handle the pitchers, but that's not a great repair on the situation either. We're in a bad situation and I don't know that there's a good answer out of it. There's MASSIVE risk any way you go. If you keep Fox, it's probably going to be the same, but if you get rid of him and bring in another guy you may be filling these kids heads with even more information and just end up overloading them. I just don't see a scenario where Lemonis feels comfortable enough letting Fox go. Lemonis may just have to take over all pitching decisions and let Kyle and the catchers call the game. Let Lemonis do all mound visits and pitching changes and basically just strip Fox of any coaching duties other than being a babysitter for their bullpens.
    Just hear me out, then call me crazy.

    But why is a PC a sacred cow? I cannot understand this. MSU could go hire an experienced PC for the season today. Just hypothetically, Dave Eiland. An ex-New York Yankee PC. 12 Years an MLB player. 10 Years an MLB PC. Has two world series wins. Sitting at home, probably in Florida where all the MLB retirees live. He would not come to Starkville for 300K to help us win 14 SEC games and keep things respectable?

    I am just using this man's name as an example, I am sure coach Cannizarro can get us someone from the Boras organization. I just like a NY Yankee coach, because they are all about winning. They are not messing around with head cases in the Bronx.

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    Senior Member StarkVegasSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer View Post
    Just hear me out, then call me crazy.

    But why is a PC a sacred cow? I cannot understand this. MSU could go hire an experienced PC for the season today. Just hypothetically, Dave Eiland. An ex-New York Yankee PC. 12 Years an MLB player. 10 Years an MLB PC. Has two world series wins. Sitting at home, probably in Florida where all the MLB retirees live. He would not come to Starkville for 300K to help us win 14 SEC games and keep things respectable?

    I am just using this man's name as an example, I am sure coach Cannizarro can get us someone from the Boras organization. I just like a NY Yankee coach, because they are all about winning. They are not messing around with head cases in the Bronx.
    No. None of those guys are going to trade sitting on a beach in Florida to come to Starkville, MS for 90 days. I know some of you guys think that Starkville is the greatest place in the world, it is not. And btw, I love Starkville and I have a condo there. I love it because I love Mississippi State. Starkville is a boring town 300 days a year if you are in between the ages of 25-50. It just is. There is not a bunch to do. Now if you are retiree or a college kid, it is a great town. Go to Starkville on a random ass Wednesday night in the middle of November and see what there is to do. Unless you want to go hang out at a bar with college kids then your options are extremely limited. I say all that to bring up a bigger point in that it is not just oh we have a nice stadium so any coach will definitely come. There are people who will come, but the list is not long as some of you think it is. Vitello for example would have been perfect when we hired Lemonis. He has no family obligations and he is just a workhorse. He could also go hobknob with the big boys at 44 Prime and be in his element.

    Secondly, Selmon is not going to demand Lemonis fire Fox and then saddle him with an interim PC that he has no relationship with. That is beyond stupid. Now, if Lemonis has an idea of a guy that he knows will come for 90 days, then do it. But do not go into it thinking that guys are going to be banging down the door to relocate to Mississippi for 90 days.
    Last edited by StarkVegasSteve; 03-20-2023 at 11:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    I'm going to say what I'm going say and try to do it without being redundant because most of what is being discussed is what I'm seeing too.

    MSU baseball has a standard and we have a formula for success. We have talented players that will attack you and play their asses off for nine innings and do everything it takes to win. Not this team- historically. Tanner Allen, Jake Mangum, Landon Sims, Ethan Small, Brent Rooker, Adam Frazier, Kendall Graveman, Brooks Bryan, Will Clark, Jeff Brantley, Palmeiro, Showalter, Jocko Potts, Brantley Jones- and etc. And as far as this team I still think we have some guys who have that in them- Hunter Hines, Luke Hancock, Nate Dohm among others.

    But the problem is playing hard and winning and solid baseball fundamentals has been clipped by this coaching staff in favor of loyalty and relying too much on baseball analytics.

    The root of our problems goes back to pitching. We should have gotten rid of Scott Foxhall last year. We should get rid of him now. I've seen this coming for awhile. His approach to pitching is too one size fits all and you can not do that with pitchers because they are human beings and are all different. Pitching like Nolan Ryan works great for Nolan Ryan- and Jacob DeGrom and Landon Sims. But not every pitcher in the HOF pitched like Nolan Ryan- Greg Maddux, Whitey Ford, and Tom Glavine are in and were great but had to do it differently. What Foxhall is doing is trying to make everyone the same guy and the results are not good for those that simply do not have that ability. Some pitchers have to pitch down- and if you ask them to live up in the zone they're going to get hit. Or since they know that they can't live up in the zone they try to get a hitter to chase. That results in balls, getting behind in the count, and walks and eventually they have to throw something hittable and then we get lit up. And then to make matters worse he sits on his ass while the pitchers rot and then their confidence is eventually destroyed to where we can't even really use them. Or he puts struggling guys into impossible situations and then it predictably doesn't work. On top of that add in all of the "minor injuries"- not Tommy John- guys just missing a month here and there. We have pitchers whose mechanics are all over the place- and they simply rarely make any progress at all and typically regress.

    On top of that we suck at holding runners on which makes the catchers look bad and then the defense is standing around and having to attend to runners- it makes it much more difficult to concentrate and it's affecting our defense as well. It's starting to affect our offense because what the hell is the point when you have to score 10 runs to even have a chance?

    I think the only chance that Lemonis has to survive is to fire Foxhall ASAP. And in season. I don't think this is going to turn around now organically. The only chance is to do something drastic and firing Foxhall is the best and really only chance Lemonis has to survive. It will be a wake up call and a fresh voice for the pitchers. They need someone that can at least somewhat assess their strengths and weaknesses and play off of their strengths. That in and of itself will make a huge difference I assure you.

    Defense is the second most pressing issue. Catchers- I know that one knee is the analytical thing to do but NOT WHEN THE WINNING RUN IS ON THIRD BASE!!!!!! WTF????????????? Our catchers are going to be issues all year no matter what but we can at LEAST use good fundamental common sense. Stealing a strike doesn't matter if the game is over because you couldn't keep the ball in front of you. Alford just needs to sit. Let Hujsack, Chester, and Mershon fight it out. We're Ok everywhere else in general. But if I was Lemonis I would be repping these guys to death everyday on defense.

    I think hitting will get better once we're more competitive IF we make those changes.

    This is how I would play it if I were in Lemonis's shoes.

    Fri- Loo with Dohm following
    Sat- Cade with Gartman following and Nixon or Hunt closing
    Sun- Holcombe with Ynetema following and then some combination of Dohm, Hunt, and Nixon based on their status that weekend.

    Tues- Loftin

    C- Going to have to be Highfill
    1B- Hines- Hancock if his back isn't too bad
    2B- Larry
    3B- Hujsack
    SS- Forsythe
    LF- Downs
    CF- Ledbetter
    RF- Kellum
    DH- Chance

    If Hancock is healthy then things change.

    As I've said I can't see the boosters putting up with this for long and even though I haven't heard anything I would be surprised if we don't see some major changes soon.
    I'm not a baseball guy, but what I have not seen the last 2 years ( after Simms went down) is a complete lack of player leaders. and I blame it on the coaching transitions we had from Cohen to Can, to Henderson, to Lem in 3 years. The hole in this team is in the upperclassmen that never learned how to be leaders.

    Whose team is this? (It's not Hancock, Clark, or Forsythe)
    Whose house or apartment are the players hanging at?


    It's still on Lem to fix it.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Ranchdawg's Avatar
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    I agree coaching is so freaking bad I don?t know where to start with the abundant problems. But these players own a lot of was is happening not just the coaches. The point I?m trying to make is example A. In the Sunday?s game against Ky. we were only down 3-4 or 3-5 Ky pitcher strikes out our batter for called 3rd strike and 3rd out of the inning. After the strike out the Ky pitcher comes off the mound and with his glove points at our dugout and says F*ck you to our dugout. You could see it on tv plain as day. The tv camera very briefly shows our dugout after this incident and there?s no reaction what so ever in our dugout. WHAT the heck. That got my blood boiling and I?m not even on the team. Come on if that had happened with previous MSU teams there would have been all heck breaking loose. These guys apparently don?t really give a crud.

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    Senior Member StarkVegasSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranchdawg View Post
    I agree coaching is so freaking bad I don?t know where to start with the abundant problems. But these players own a lot of was is happening not just the coaches. The point I?m trying to make is example A. In the Sunday?s game against Ky. we were only down 3-4 or 3-5 Ky pitcher strikes out our batter for called 3rd strike and 3rd out of the inning. After the strike out the Ky pitcher comes off the mound and with his glove points at our dugout and says F*ck you to our dugout. You could see it on tv plain as day. The tv camera very briefly shows our dugout after this incident and there?s no reaction what so ever in our dugout. WHAT the heck. That got my blood boiling and I?m not even on the team. Come on if that had happened with previous MSU teams there would have been all heck breaking loose. These guys apparently don?t really give a crud.
    I mean what did you want them to do? They're not going to run out there and try to fight him. All that does is just get them suspended. It's the same thing as when Ethan Small used to do it. No one is going to come charging out of the dugout and go after a player. If you don't want them doing that then maybe try not striking out. Pimp one off of him the next inning and tell him to F off as you're rounding 3rd.

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    Senior Member Commercecomet24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    I mean what did you want them to do? They're not going to run out there and try to fight him. All that does is just get them suspended. It's the same thing as when Ethan Small used to do it. No one is going to come charging out of the dugout and go after a player. If you don't want them doing that then maybe try not striking out. Pimp one off of him the next inning and tell him to F off as you're rounding 3rd.
    Yeah this is how you handle it. Go out and rake him and then you can trash talk him.

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    Got to fire both Lemonis & Foxhall at the same time - now

    Ask Gautreau and Cheese to do the best they can with the rest of the season and then go look for Lemonis's replacement after the season is over.
    Otherwise, if you fire Foxhall but not Lemonis, no pitching coach is going to take Fox's place, knowing that there is a 75% chance that Lemonis gets fired next season.

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