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Thread: OT - Required Listing of Salary Ranges on Job Postings

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    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    OT - Required Listing of Salary Ranges on Job Postings

    This is a dang interesting topic that I have came across the last couple of days. In NY, employers that have a job posting are required to list a salary range for the specific job they are hiring for. This seems to be an obvious requirement that should be done on all jobs, but since this is a new requirement some interesting issues have developed along side the requirement. Jobs are being listed as higher salaries than they are currently paying similar workers and the workers are seeing it.

    Now generally, I am 100% in the camp, you get what you negotiate. But as a younger professional, knowing whether you are getting a fair wage versus your coworkers would have placed some aspects of being new to a job in perspective. I have always been open about my salary level to anyone that asked, before becoming a business owner. As a grunt.... I would openly talk about salary level, bonuses, etc unless my employer directly discussed that I was getting more of a bonus than other people and to keep morale high, don't advertise it. Now, even with that, grunts know the production value of other grunts in the office. If someone is on par with you, you would expect that they would be compensated similarly to you and in that case I would openly discuss it with those people.

    Now, most people are not this realistic. Most grunts always see themselves as the TOP Grunt and believe they should make more than everyone else. Those people are going to have a hard time at listed salary ranges.

    As a business owner, I can see the issues with posting potential job salary levels. First, salaries do not tell the entire story. Bonuses in my field may double if not triple your salary level in good years. Second, experience, production value, and market connections trump everything else in the office. We may pay someone 2X salary level for their position if they have specific experience needed or can add to the marketing aspect of our office.

    All in all, I believe knowing what your co-workers make have both positives and negatives. Transparency helps to equalize the pay gap, but it can be a source of issue if the worker feels like they are being slighted. My mom has worked for the same company for 20 years. Hourly. Just now getting to 22-24 dollars per hour. People getting hired in at 19 because people refuse to do the work for any less with Amazon and other companies starting out at that rate. My mom continuously talks about how it is unfair that 20 years experience is worth only 3 dollars an hour. And I agree with her disappointment. She started at 9/hr and now makes 22/hr. Gaining only 3 per hour over the starting rate. What she doesn't realize, in her position, her experience doesn't pay off that much for the company. It is the hard truth, and her value at 22/hr is barely the minimum to keep her there.

    So, transparency in job pay is going to shake some stuff up, and there will definitely be people pissed when they find out their co-workers may get more pay for the same work. I will be interested in how it unfolds.
    Downvotes_Hype

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    Senior Member BoomBoom's Avatar
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    Workers are going to take a greater share of the pie for a generation or two, eating into profits. Gonna be a big fight over how much. ]

    I've only begun to realize how much of this played into the housing boom. When you get an offer for 30, 40, even 50 grand more per year, it makes perfect sense to buy a house as part of the move, even if you're overpaying by $100k. Lots of corporate low-pay strategies got blown up in the last year. They'll fight tooth and nail to go back to the old way.

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    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    I think it should be required, but should be listed as a "range" depending upon experience. It's up to the potential employee and the employer to determine where they believe they fit in that range.

    I've made it personal policy to never pursue a job that I do not know where the starting salary begins. To me, posting the salary range is about transparency and expectations. As a department head in local govt., I laugh when I have a job posted at $45k and get applications with "salary expectation" of $90k. You just wasted an email and 5 minutes of my time. Delete.
    "After dealing with Ole Miss for over a year," he said, "I've learned to expect their leadership to do and say things that the leadership at other Division I schools would never consider doing and to justify their actions by reminding themselves that "We're Ole Miss.""
    - Tom Mars, Esq. 4.9.18

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    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    I believe it is allowed under the requirement to be a range. Also, and this cannot be stated enough, the potential employee still has the right to negotiate whatever they want. That is a win/win in my book.

    Also, the only salaries the employees could see are the new employees. They may still have an issue with that, but it isn't like bubba who has been there for 20 years has his posted for all to see. Again, this initial transparency will help with the right to work situation and overall not wasting time interviewing someone only for them to turn you down once you name the salary that is too low for the market.
    Downvotes_Hype

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    Lower wage workers have been given a 25-50% pay raise since COVID and upper level people have been lucky to get 10-20%.

    Something has to give.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead View Post
    This is a dang interesting topic that I have came across the last couple of days. In NY, employers that have a job posting are required to list a salary range for the specific job they are hiring for. This seems to be an obvious requirement that should be done on all jobs, but since this is a new requirement some interesting issues have developed along side the requirement. Jobs are being listed as higher salaries than they are currently paying similar workers and the workers are seeing it.

    Now generally, I am 100% in the camp, you get what you negotiate. But as a younger professional, knowing whether you are getting a fair wage versus your coworkers would have placed some aspects of being new to a job in perspective. I have always been open about my salary level to anyone that asked, before becoming a business owner. As a grunt.... I would openly talk about salary level, bonuses, etc unless my employer directly discussed that I was getting more of a bonus than other people and to keep morale high, don't advertise it. Now, even with that, grunts know the production value of other grunts in the office. If someone is on par with you, you would expect that they would be compensated similarly to you and in that case I would openly discuss it with those people.

    Now, most people are not this realistic. Most grunts always see themselves as the TOP Grunt and believe they should make more than everyone else. Those people are going to have a hard time at listed salary ranges.

    As a business owner, I can see the issues with posting potential job salary levels. First, salaries do not tell the entire story. Bonuses in my field may double if not triple your salary level in good years. Second, experience, production value, and market connections trump everything else in the office. We may pay someone 2X salary level for their position if they have specific experience needed or can add to the marketing aspect of our office.

    All in all, I believe knowing what your co-workers make have both positives and negatives. Transparency helps to equalize the pay gap, but it can be a source of issue if the worker feels like they are being slighted. My mom has worked for the same company for 20 years. Hourly. Just now getting to 22-24 dollars per hour. People getting hired in at 19 because people refuse to do the work for any less with Amazon and other companies starting out at that rate. My mom continuously talks about how it is unfair that 20 years experience is worth only 3 dollars an hour. And I agree with her disappointment. She started at 9/hr and now makes 22/hr. Gaining only 3 per hour over the starting rate. What she doesn't realize, in her position, her experience doesn't pay off that much for the company. It is the hard truth, and her value at 22/hr is barely the minimum to keep her there.

    So, transparency in job pay is going to shake some stuff up, and there will definitely be people pissed when they find out their co-workers may get more pay for the same work. I will be interested in how it unfolds.
    So they're having to post like the top of the range, all the way down to the woman range???***

    Stole that from SNL of all places to find something funnyish.

    I would be all for it if they didn't make the legal system so friendly to baseless lawsuits.

    Most of the problems from this will arise from companies not being direct and not providing honest feedback about where people stand. But there will be a lot of problems with baseless litigation also.

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    I don’t like it. Because ranges change drastically depending on the person. Let’s say Dan Mullen left for Florida and we were looking for a head coach. We post a range of $2 million - $5 million. Nick Saban calls and says he wants the job if we can pay $6 million. Are we going to turn him down? Or we offer Moorhead, Napier, etc, and they all turn us down. Our last resort is the special teams coach from Millsaps. I’m not going to pay him $2 million.

    Business is the same way. I hired a CFO. If you asked me my range it would have been extremely broad. Because some applicants were worth $40K and some were worth $120K. So the range is ALWAYS “pay depending on what you can do and what you can produce”. I despise the government way of “this job pays this salary”. If I produce twice as much I expect to get paid twice as much. It’s why I left government after 2 years.

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    A lot of this comes form the union method of collective bargaining and the feeling that all welders on the shipyard do the same job and work the same hours, and therefore should get the same pay.

    Just because Andy Dalton, Patrick Mahomes, Baker Mayfield, and Josh Allen all do the same job doesn’t mean they should get the same pay. And when it comes to common workers, you have superstars and nonperformers just like in sports. Not all welders in the shipyard are equal. Not even close.

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    Senior Member BoomBoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somebodyshotmypaw View Post
    I don?t like it. Because ranges change drastically depending on the person. Let?s say Dan Mullen left for Florida and we were looking for a head coach. We post a range of $2 million - $5 million. Nick Saban calls and says he wants the job if we can pay $6 million. Are we going to turn him down? Or we offer Moorhead, Napier, etc, and they all turn us down. Our last resort is the special teams coach from Millsaps. I?m not going to pay him $2 million.

    Business is the same way. I hired a CFO. If you asked me my range it would have been extremely broad. Because some applicants were worth $40K and some were worth $120K. So the range is ALWAYS ?pay depending on what you can do and what you can produce?. I despise the government way of ?this job pays this salary?. If I produce twice as much I expect to get paid twice as much. It?s why I left government after 2 years.
    In your examples, the company could just pull the listing and repost it with a changed range. Except not, because as far as I'm aware it doesn't really matter, there's no "Salary Range Police" to come knocking over an outlier scenario.

    For almost all jobs, companies already have ranges. They pay money to other companies for this knowledge,and use it to set pay, raises, etc.

    And LMFAO at "produce twice as much and get paid twice as much". Corporate America does not believe in that AT ALL.

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    Senior Member BoomBoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somebodyshotmypaw View Post
    A lot of this comes form the union method of collective bargaining and the feeling that all welders on the shipyard do the same job and work the same hours, and therefore should get the same pay.

    Just because Andy Dalton, Patrick Mahomes, Baker Mayfield, and Josh Allen all do the same job doesn?t mean they should get the same pay. And when it comes to common workers, you have superstars and nonperformers just like in sports. Not all welders in the shipyard are equal. Not even close.
    Pretty terrible analogy, as sports stars were paid crap until they UNIONIZED.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBoom View Post
    Pretty terrible analogy, as sports stars were paid crap until they UNIONIZED.
    Well I was about to say he needs to check the NBA. That 13th guy in the bench is probably making more than 50% of NFL players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBoom View Post



    And LMFAO at "produce twice as much and get paid twice as much". Corporate America does not believe in that AT ALL.
    The problem with this is that 90% of employees think they?re the ones producing ?twice as much?. The reality is that about 75% of employees pretty much suck. If someone ever says they would work harder if they got paid what they were worth, the truth is that they?re already overpaid.

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    Senior Member BoomBoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMDawg View Post
    The problem with this is that 90% of employees think they?re the ones producing ?twice as much?. The reality is that about 75% of employees pretty much suck. If someone ever says they would work harder if they got paid what they were worth, the truth is that they?re already overpaid.
    Nah, the truth is that 90%+ of workers are vastly underpaid. That's where corporate profits come from.

    It's always amazing (not at all amazing) how companies with competition for employees suddenly find their employees are worth so much more.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    I think a range is fine but I never disclose my actual salary to my co-workers. I don't ask about their salary either.

    Of course, mine is a bit higher because I work a lot of overtime on top of my regular hours but I do that by choice.

    The thing is by perception we all think we work harder than everyone else for the same job. But that's not always reality and if you approach your supervisors asking for a raise because you do more based on your perception- just be prepared to prove it because if you really don't you're going to come across as entitled. People that take that approach and can't prove their worth may end up hurting themselves when going for promotions and things like that.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBoom View Post
    Nah, the truth is that 90%+ of workers are vastly underpaid. That's where corporate profits come from.

    It's always amazing (not at all amazing) how companies with competition for employees suddenly find their employees are worth so much more.
    In the hospital industry with COVID it was VERY eye opening in this regard because of suddenly how much they were paying travel nurses. Well over 100 dollars an hour in some cases. Basically it showed us that they could be paying us a LOT more. Really hurt relations with all employees who had been loyal to the company for years and years. A lot of health care professionals went into travel positions for that reason and no one could blame them.

    I'm not a nurse but if I had the opportunity to work my ass of for a year or two and make 300K+ for a couple of year it would absolutely be worth it because I could easily take a year off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomBoom View Post
    Pretty terrible analogy, as sports stars were paid crap until they UNIONIZED.
    The union doesn’t bargain the wages in sports. The athletes dont want that. Because Mahomes and Tom Brady and Peyton Manning don’t want to be paid the same as PJ Walker and Andy Dalton. When the union negotiates wages, Patrick Mahomes the welder makes the same as Andy Dalton the welder.

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    I know some who quit over the shot mandate and were then hired as travel nurses and still live 20 mins away and doubled their pay and do the same job at the same facility.

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    Here will be my pay range when I hire: Mechanical engineer wanted. Salary range $18,000 - $320,000 annually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by somebodyshotmypaw View Post
    Here will be my pay range when I hire: Mechanical engineer wanted. Salary range $18,000 - $320,000 annually.
    As a ME, I would take that as a huge red flag. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by somebodyshotmypaw View Post
    The union doesn?t bargain the wages in sports. The athletes dont want that. Because Mahomes and Tom Brady and Peyton Manning don?t want to be paid the same as PJ Walker and Andy Dalton. When the union negotiates wages, Patrick Mahomes the welder makes the same as Andy Dalton the welder.
    Because the union members decided its better that way. If athletes were treated as employees the way shipyards treat their employees, you better believe they'd trade some top end pay for protection from bullshite too.

    More players don't get to FA than those that do, and those that don't have their wages negotiated by the union (minimum, etc). So you're still wrong.

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