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Thread: The real problem

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowbell View Post
    You boys can talk about Will all you want But it's a moot point. Period. It's sad that the most accurate passer we have ever had is getting wasted in a faulty offensive scheme and here's the reasons why.

    1) This offense does not exploit mismatches. The college game is won by those who know how to circle weaknesses on teams and exploit them. Instead, we run what we run and focus on execution and don't exploit other teams weaknesses or game plan to exploit them on a detailed level.

    2) If the other teams ends are better than our tackles, that is possibly the game. Arizona got us in a tight spot because of this. Their DL was the only talent they had and it nearly exploited our offense at times. Good defenses like Georgia, alabama and LSU will win every time. We make it so easy on DCs - they just pin their ears back and come after us every play. We just let our tackles live on an island and hope they win. And if they don't, so be it. A running back can't chip an SEC defensive end. We don't bootleg. We rarely run play action. We don't run inside screens. We rarely run draws. We don't make defenses back off in any way. They have learned to let linebackers sit down in coverage but still play close enough to be effective in our few run plays. Our guards essentially are a waste of a body on many pass plays. That's a mismatch to the advantage of the DC - think about it - - we have two blockers nearly every play that don't even account for anyone. That's why they can cover 5-6 with 8. Its INSANITY.

    3) Tight Ends - name me a good team at any level of football that doesn't have an effective tight end. A good tight end would really change this offense. Ends and linebackers would have to start paying better attention and they couldn't just pin their ears back. He would be an extra dump route outside of the running back. I don't know why we don't just put one of our bigger receivers there to chip and create some disguise at times.

    4) We don't have an OC and therefore no creative play making. We just focus on repetition and execution. It's like only taking one tool to a job when you might need a dozen different things. This offense could be killer at our current talent level if we could just make defenses keep guessing. Instead they generally know what we are doing, they just have to stop it. Think about that. They know what we are going to do week in and week out. Saban was able to alter his defense last year in one week of practice because he knew exactly what we were going to do so he took advantage. The offense is a sitting duck to good coaches with average talent. You can make confident calls when you aren't guessing what we are going to do next. And again - make me a good team at any level that doesn't have a good OC.

    I'm done with Leach - this offense is a joke against good teams. Good DCs will eat us alive going forward. Our talent and experience are the only thing that will keep us in games. The coaching will not. We have a coach that has not changed anything in 20 years and I again would love for you to point me to a coach that has found consistent success without adapting. Even the best coaches with the best talent adapt. It's really a disservice for him to get paid what he is making and not put in the work to change and adapt to beat good teams. That's his job.
    You pretty much nailed it. My biggest beef is his approach to it all. He will not gameplan to do anything to leverage his strengths or exploit what other team does. His answer is just repeat and do what I do better or perfect. His goal to end his career is to prove to the world that his un-altered O scheme can win in the SEC. He has said this indirectly many times if you listen to what he is saying. That is why he will not adapt. Others coaches run parts of this scheme but don't sell out. His O will work on weak Ds in Pac10 and Big12.

    Good NFL type SECD with tweaking coaches will beat us everytime. Dumb SEC coaches will not (ala LSU the first game) then Ark and UK showed everyone else how to defend Leach with an SECD. Leach has shown a little bend with run game but he can't help it. He gets first and goal inside 5 and he throws it 3 straight times when he been gashing AZ all game.

    All this I still hope we win enough because I want MSU to win more than I want some scheme to work or not. Just MSU win. I just see a handicap and I don't like MSU being handicapped.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooterpoot View Post
    The punt changed momentum but it didn't cost us the game. This is a damn veteran team that should be mentally tougher than the shit show we saw the second half. Go take that momentum back. We didn't even put up a fight the second half. Folded like a cheap lawn chair.
    Agree. We still could have scored on O and got momentum back and won the game but we didn't and couldn't.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman15 View Post
    Woody Marks and Dillon Johnson will both be NFL backs. At least one of our wide receivers will be drafted, I feel like the last wide receiver we had drafted was Eric Moulds so yes we are more talented in those rooms
    I like Dillon but he is way to slow to make NFL. It the power football days of Jackie and Mullen. Dillion is running 4th team. Woody got an outside shot.

    Back to Moulds. Give me a stud WR and power running game like back then and we can do some damage. Moulds demanded double and triple teams at times he was so dominant.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooterpoot View Post
    OK, 4 dropped balls cost us the game***. They ate this offense up the second half. Sacks are easy when you know what play we're running.
    and when you put three DL on the end and we have 2 to block 3 and we never exploited the middle of the field to make them pay.

  5. #85
    Senior Member TrapGame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R2Dawg View Post
    and when you put three DL on the end and we have 2 to block 3 and we never exploited the middle of the field to make them pay.
    Yes, we ****ing did and Rufus dropped the ball once and Will took sacks instead of passing the ball to Rufus who was still the **** open in the middle almost every damn time. It was there and we didn't take it. Will has to make those throws instead of taking a sack and Rufus has to catch them. We totally shit the bed in the second half. It's not all on coaches. The players have to make the plays.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homedawg View Post
    2. The Fr might be better than Evans before all is said and done.
    My thoughts as well. How he was looked over is astonishing

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrapGame View Post
    Leach isn't going anywhere unless we completely implode this season and finish 6-6 with a third consecutive loss to OM. Then he will be asked to "retire". And if that comes to fruition I'm 100% behind it.
    That's 100% a possibility at this point

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMDawg View Post
    I was corrected the other day and told that Leach was hired BECAUSE his offense is innovative, when I claimed it WAS innovative 20-25 years ago but is now just antiquated and inefficient.
    There is not one thing innovative in our offensive scheme as it relates to current times

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCDawg View Post
    Prerequisite for Leach's offense-good accurate passing QB, OL that gives the QB time to pass, good speedy W/R's that can catch. If one of those 3 fails, it ain't going to work.
    Which is why innovation is for winners. You innovate to compensate

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowbell View Post
    Which is why innovation is for winners. You innovate to compensate
    So which current offenses do you consider innovative? What are they doing so different from most that makes them so "innovative"? (other than have mobile QBs, good Olines, and very good WRs).

    Things I remember from the Mullen era:

    1) An anonymous poll of SEC coaches about other coaches and when asked about Dan one coach said he was easy to defend. He did the same things every game and didn't change anything.

    2) When Mullen would be interviewed when his offense wasn't working that well (which was mostly the norm) he'd always say there wasn't anything wrong with the offense, they just weren't executing. Reporters or whatnot would make suggestions similar to what is in this thread and he'd blow them off and say "We just need to execute". Seems like that is what Leach says now. Also seems like that is what Saban said against Texas the other day. Probably need to fire Saban for that offensive performance against Texas a couple of weeks ago ... Pathetic.

    3) A ton of message board threads like this about Mullen's offense.

    Dan won with defense.
    His total offense ranked 69, 42, 84, 80, 42, 8, 31, 44, 46.
    His scoring offenses ranked 72, 48, 72, 60, 70, 16, 33, 56, 41

    Leach last year:
    Total offense: 28
    Scoring offense: 60

    Leach last 2 years at Washington St
    Total offense: 27, 7
    Scoring offense: 15, 11
    Last edited by dawgday166; 09-21-2022 at 04:43 PM.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrapGame View Post
    Yes, we ****ing did and Rufus dropped the ball once and Will took sacks instead of passing the ball to Rufus who was still the **** open in the middle almost every damn time. It was there and we didn't take it. Will has to make those throws instead of taking a sack and Rufus has to catch them. We totally shit the bed in the second half. It's not all on coaches. The players have to make the plays.

    RaRa dropped one too.


    YEP.. Collective effort to not win

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    So which current offenses do you consider innovative? What are they doing so different from most that makes them so "innovative"? (other than have mobile QBs, good Olines, and very good WRs).

    Things I remember from the Mullen era:

    1) An anonymous poll of SEC coaches about other coaches and when asked about Dan one coach said he was easy to defend. He did the same things every game and didn't change anything.

    2) When Mullen would be interviewed when his offense wasn't working that well (which was mostly the norm) he'd always say there wasn't anything wrong with the offense, they just weren't executing. Reporters or whatnot would make suggestions similar to what is in this thread and he'd blow them off and say "We just need to execute". Seems like that is what Leach says now. Also seems like that is what Saban said against Texas the other day. Probably need to fire Saban for that offensive performance against Texas a couple of weeks ago ... Pathetic.

    3) A ton of message board threads like this about Mullen's offense.

    Dan won with defense.
    His total offense ranked 69, 42, 84, 80, 42, 8, 31, 44, 46.
    His scoring offenses ranked 72, 48, 72, 60, 70, 16, 33, 56, 41

    Leach last year:
    Total offense: 28
    Scoring offense: 60

    Leach last 2 years at Washington St
    Total offense: 27, 7
    Scoring offense: 15, 11
    Winner!


    Building a program takes time. Last year showed flashes. So far, we have won the ones we should have, and lost a close on on the road. Now we get to see the heart of this team and if they can get back on track!

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    So which current offenses do you consider innovative? What are they doing so different from most that makes them so "innovative"? (other than have mobile QBs, good Olines, and very good WRs).

    Things I remember from the Mullen era:

    1) An anonymous poll of SEC coaches about other coaches and when asked about Dan one coach said he was easy to defend. He did the same things every game and didn't change anything.

    2) When Mullen would be interviewed when his offense wasn't working that well (which was mostly the norm) he'd always say there wasn't anything wrong with the offense, they just weren't executing. Reporters or whatnot would make suggestions similar to what is in this thread and he'd blow them off and say "We just need to execute". Seems like that is what Leach says now. Also seems like that is what Saban said against Texas the other day. Probably need to fire Saban for that offensive performance against Texas a couple of weeks ago ... Pathetic.

    3) A ton of message board threads like this about Mullen's offense.

    Dan won with defense.
    His total offense ranked 69, 42, 84, 80, 42, 8, 31, 44, 46.
    His scoring offenses ranked 72, 48, 72, 60, 70, 16, 33, 56, 41

    Leach last year:
    Total offense: 28
    Scoring offense: 60

    Leach last 2 years at Washington St
    Total offense: 27, 7
    Scoring offense: 15, 11
    Why are you talking about Mullen - my comments were aimed towards Leach. But since you brought it up, Mullen did utilize what talent he had. The problem with him is his play calling was predictable and he was too conservative against the good teams.

  14. #94
    Senior Member Maroonthirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrapGame View Post
    Yes, we ****ing did and Rufus dropped the ball once and Will took sacks instead of passing the ball to Rufus who was still the **** open in the middle almost every damn time. It was there and we didn't take it. Will has to make those throws instead of taking a sack and Rufus has to catch them. We totally shit the bed in the second half. It's not all on coaches. The players have to make the plays.
    I remember the drop. However give some details on the other plays where he was supposedly wide open and Rogers took a sack. Quarter, time, down and distance?

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowbell View Post
    Why are you talking about Mullen - my comments were aimed towards Leach. But since you brought it up, Mullen did utilize what talent he had. The problem with him is his play calling was predictable and he was too conservative against the good teams.
    I believe that is what Leach is doing too. Mullen did it so well that his offensive ranks were what they were.

    My original question was about innovative offenses, not Mullen. I put that in there about Mullen (and Saban) to show that all coaches run what they run. I can't tell that Napier has changed anything from what he normally runs. Kirby still has a base old school offense to some degree. The differences are in players and mobile QBs. Yet Leach historically doesn't have great players yet his offensive ranks are real high regardless. He topped all the Mullen years (except 2014) in total O last year.

  16. #96
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    I?m now dumber for having read this original post
    Romans 5:8

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by preachermatt83 View Post
    I?m now dumber for having read this original post
    This comment backs that up lol

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    I believe that is what Leach is doing too. Mullen did it so well that his offensive ranks were what they were.

    My original question was about innovative offenses, not Mullen. I put that in there about Mullen (and Saban) to show that all coaches run what they run. I can't tell that Napier has changed anything from what he normally runs. Kirby still has a base old school offense to some degree. The differences are in players and mobile QBs. Yet Leach historically doesn't have great players yet his offensive ranks are real high regardless. He topped all the Mullen years (except 2014) in total O last year.
    Leach utilizes talent that fits what he wants to do. He doesn't shape the offense to the strength of the talent we have and to help compensate for where we lack. Examples would be 1)designing plays to get pressure off the right tackle when he's getting man-handled, 2) running plays to slow the defense from bull rushing every play, 3)using our speed guy to catch punts instead of AW, 4) not running off the solid tight ends he inherited when he got here, 5)shortening splits to help with the tackles when he got here, 6)running the football with the rb duo we currently have, 7)rolling Will out by design to help him get out of the pocket and get comfortable keeping plays alive, keeping defenses honest by running more to get defenses to be honest and allow our talented receivers to get mismatches and stretch the field.

  19. #99
    Senior Member TrapGame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maroonthirteen View Post
    I remember the drop. However give some details on the other plays where he was supposedly wide open and Rogers took a sack. Quarter, time, down and distance?
    How bout you go back and watch the game and see it for yourself.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowbell View Post
    Leach utilizes talent that fits what he wants to do. He doesn't shape the offense to the strength of the talent we have and to help compensate for where we lack. Examples would be 1)designing plays to get pressure off the right tackle when he's getting man-handled, 2) running plays to slow the defense from bull rushing every play, 3)using our speed guy to catch punts instead of AW, 4) not running off the solid tight ends he inherited when he got here, 5)shortening splits to help with the tackles when he got here, 6)running the football with the rb duo we currently have, 7)rolling Will out by design to help him get out of the pocket and get comfortable keeping plays alive, keeping defenses honest by running more to get defenses to be honest and allow our talented receivers to get mismatches and stretch the field.
    Which goes back to what I said. Coaches are gonna run what they run. BTW ... Just watched parts of 2nd half. The splits are about half of what they used to be. Not terribly wide really.

    Actually did see mesh on one play and Will threw to wrong receiver..the other one was wide open. Will was in too big a hurry. Plays were there to be made. Dropped balls, throwing to wrong receiver, lack of execution was the problem.

    Had some daylight on sweeps a couple of times briefly but LSU DBs ate up our WRs who were blocking them. Players matter.

    Now we can bitch about coaching cause execution isn't happening crisply but it isn't the offensive concepts. But that would most likely be the case with any coach this long into their tenure at MSU.

    ETA: Will was also telegraphing his throws a good bit too.
    Last edited by dawgday166; 09-21-2022 at 10:00 PM.

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