Reply With QuoteGreat Post. But Cohen knows what is best for MSU and MSU Fans must know their place. This is how LT used to do it!
I started following MSU football in 1991 after we knocked off Texas. At least seriously- I remember when Felker was the coach and there were fire Rockey signs in the stands on the news but I didn't pay that much attention to the team as a whole. Back then I remember as a child my Mom who is a MSU alum telling me that MSU is bad in football but we're good in baseball. And that's just the way it is. This was the 1980's for context- post 1985 for sure. Anyway- we hired Jackie and that changed some we started to win in football, Croom had one good year, Dan was good, and even Joe won at MSU. I believe Leach will too just based on pure history- both his and MSU as every MSU coach going back to Wade Walker has had at least one winning season- even Shira pulled out a 6-5 in 1970.
Anyway, all of that is to say that there is a prevailing attitude at MSU that "we're good in baseball but not good in football". However, to the contrary we've been to 11 bowls in a row have been #1 in the country for a time, and won the SEC West. All of this has occurred in my fan lifetime and has been witnessed by me often times in person. We even have a winning record in the Egg Bowl since 1991 and have not lost to USM since 1988. In my fan lifetime we have done a LOT of good things and won a LOT of games. However, despite this it seems like the MSU athletic administration can't believe that we can actually be good in football. And some fans as well. As a result it appears as if they do not appear to even try to be better. Now I'm sure I'm going to get "But they want to win more than you"- impossible to quantify sure. At any rate I don't believe that to be the case. Just that this is the impression that is given off. I think the truth is the MSU administration doesn't know how to win or promote the team well enough. It feels as though we're living in the Scott Stricklin past of 2014 and have just never really left or adapted or changed.
And this isn't the first time MSU has done this with a sport. Believe it or not, this happened to baseball in the 2000's when we brought back Ron Polk and as hard as it is to believe we de-emphasized baseball. We literally just played the Chicken Dance at games and just "let Ron handle baseball." Then we hit a crossroads where we could have either hired Tommy Raffo who would have been same old same old MSU who the old guard wanted or we could decide to actually reach our ceiling in baseball. We then went out and hired John Cohen to reach our ceiling. This caused a massive rift, a rebuild that essentially last three years but once it got going we started to get closer and closer to our ceiling starting 2011. We won SEC Tournaments, started going to Omaha, started to win Governor's Cups, make it to the National Championship series, won the SEC, and then finally won the National Championship. As we all know, Cohen did not win the title as coach but he did lay the ground work and put the program in a stable position and did win it as AD 13 years after he was hired.
Similarly, I feel like MSU just expects Dan, Joe, or Mike to "handle football" and the athletic department just opens the gates to Davis Wade, makes sure I don't bring a gun in the stadium, and sells me crappy chicken tenders. Like baseball that is NOT going to work and MSU needs to figure out how to reach our ceiling. And of course, I have ideas.
1. We need to really invest in football recruiting and embrace it. I think this is one of the things that began the turnaround in baseball starting with Chris Stratton's commitment. MSU has been woeful in this arena for years. It is however understandable. We have had highly rated classes flame out before. We have also been hit heavily with probation before as well for doing lesser things than other schools- mostly due to MSU's historical "exemplary compliance" stance. That has in effect discouraged boosters from getting involved as MSU has historically proven that they will not support boosters involved in infractions. However, we are now entering a new era where there is no reason to cheat because now everyone can just claim it as NIL. Unless they don't have a brain. So MSU MUST GET THEIR BOOSTERS ORGANIZED AND ENCOURAGE THEM TO PARTICIPATE IN THE NIL. It's absolutely vital. And you can sit there and say "well, we're only going to recruit at this level, and I don't like the offense so other recruits must not like it, and the coach doesn't like to recruit. All of that doesn't matter. Case in point. Ole Miss football 2010. They went 2-10 and were one year off of losing to Jacksonville State while running everything out of the I formation pretty much while wearing Confederate uniforms and were STILL able sign three Army All-American players that MSU wanted while we had a 9-4 season and beat the snot out of Michigan and Ole Miss and had a fun offense and defense. The point is everyone has their price. And we need to start paying it. Our historical philosophy has been to hire a coach who is a offensive guru and ask him to basically outsmart everyone with our lower rated players while being outgunned. Realistically that's only going to go so far whether we're running the wishbone, the West Coast Offense, the Air Raid, or the spread option. And if we can recruit men's basketball well- heck women's basketball there is no reason why we can't be a top 20 team in recruiting. At this point it's all about what we put into it.
2. Along those lines, build an indoor practice facility. Who cares if Leach thinks we need one or not? It's like a deck on a house. It may not be necessary and the owner may not care about whether there is one or not- but without question a decent deck helps the value of the house. Leach I'm sure doesn't care if we build one. And if not him another coach will probably want one somewhere along the line. Oh yeah- and it helps with recruiting.
3. MSU has done a poor job of promoting MSU football IMO. It's like they're just trying to poorly imitate Scott Stricklin every gameday. I don't see billboards around promoting the team as much. The only time I've ever seen an ad with Leach in it was after we beat LSU. During the game there is nothing where fans participate on the field. No pass, punt, kick contest. No throw the football through the truck and you win it. Nothing new. It's basically "Here's the men's golf team", "Here's Rafael Palmeiro", "Here's the tailgaters of the game", and that's about it. I mean, it's OK to keep doing that stuff. I think MSU should. But there should be more active things going on for casual fans to watch during the game. Cohen's a baseball guy. He needs to look up the Savannah Bananas college summer league team. Since he or whoever he hired can't come up with anything good on their own. Also, drop ticket prices. That in and of itself would help. And if I'm Cohen I start a drive to build more hotels that are relatively inexpensive so that fans can stay the night as Starkville isn't exactly the most convenient place to go watch a game and you have constantly worry about the Louisville Highway Patrol for about 10-15 miles on top of it. That would help our fans on the Gulf Coast and out of state go to a game. Sometimes I can't even find anything in Starkville for a baseball regional much less a football game. The food quality needs to be improved at the concession stands. And all of this "well we couldn't find workers and had to use Bart Gregory so serve beer"- I mean seriously? MSU is a college campus of what 20K students? You're telling me that NONE of those plus however many 18 year olds at the area high schools are willing to go work a Saturday and make some money? I mean, I know the youth have questionable work standards but even I trust them to fill a cup of Coke. Chik- Fil- A manages to make them do it 6 days a week and we only need like seven Saturdays. Yes, winning helps more than anything but I think it was Dan Mullen that said the fans have to show up first to support the program before it wins. I think there is something to that.
4. Along those lines MSU continues to give it's fans the middle finger by not using the interlocking MSU in some form or fashion forcing us to use the LT M-State banner. What other football program in the country does that to their fans? Really? Save me all of the "marketing 101 and branding" bullshit that MSU wants us to believe and no one really buys. MSU shouldn't care if someone in Wyoming recognizes us. Just because they see M-State on TV they're not going to just go on Fanatics and buy a t-shirt that is the wrong shade of maroon. Our primary market is guess who? OUR FANS! Marketing 101. Look how well the Flying-M sold. The interlocking MSU will sell three times as well. And no, I'm NOT talking about using the 1990's Nike one. Adidas should come up with their own. We can use it once or twice a year and I think everyone will go nuts with joy buy up a ton of merchandise and they can still use M-State the other 10 games. And it won't kill any branding. Which I know because sports teams have been using throwback logos and uniforms as one offs for years now and no one has lost their identity in the process. And they've actually sold a ton of stuff. So quite the opposite.
5. I like Mike Leach and I do think he will be successful here. I think he will be here for several years. We'll see. That said, like all coaches he will inevitably leave at some point. And whenever that point comes I think MSU needs to go in a different direction than the model I talked about earlier where we essentially hire a offensive guru and try to outsmart everyone. Interestingly enough we haven't really hired a Southern coach since Croom. We've hired two guys from the North and Leach is from the West Coast. I think that has hurt us somewhat as far as the fans go because right or wrong I think a lot of our fans want someone "Southern" that is "like us". So if I was Cohen I would start to identify coaching prospects and start to groom them essentially for the future. And the guy I have in mind to ideally to do that is Joe Judge. And yes, I know Judge is from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania not Philadelphia, Mississippi. But he is a MSU grad. So he is one of us. And basically I would want our next coach whoever it is whether it's Judge or someone else to be a CEO coach instead of an offense or defense guy. Now, I'm not saying that not getting Judge was a bad break. To the contrary I don't think Judge was ready for our job. Now he has head coaching experience in New York City no less in the NFL. So I think he would be even more ready for our job when the time comes. Now, I need to explain what I mean when I say grooming. I mean I think Cohen needs to help him make connections to the brightest offensive and defensive minds in the college game and back to point number one recruiters as position coaches that have Mississippi ties. We need to do whatever we can do to attract the best local coaches to MSU that are qualified. I could see Judge being the OC at Alabama at some point in time as well. Which I think would be a great experience for him. Cohen needs to get up to date on the best current recruiting practices and then help Judge implement them when the time comes because if he's in the NFL he may not know what those are.
6. For me personally- have the band march in the stadium before the game again.
Anyway- that's how we reach our ceiling in football. I think it's doable and it's past time for MSU Administration to stop "can't believing" we are successful in football.
Last edited by Todd4State; 09-21-2021 at 02:27 AM.
Great Post. But Cohen knows what is best for MSU and MSU Fans must know their place. This is how LT used to do it!
I agree with a lot you wrote. And agree there are some serious fixes that need to occur!
Things that will not change!
1. Ticket prices agreed are too high for your average Joe and family of 4. Bulldog donation, season tickets tickets for four, hotel prices for weekend, tailgating food/drink and regular dinning. But those prices are not going to change. Can?t change!
2. Stadium seating. Been told multiple times from different sources that the way the main grandstands are built does not lend to placing chairback seating instead of bench.
I?m sure there are others
Things that can change!
1. The attitude of individual players enduring themselves to the fan base. Women?s basketball did it and the fan base ate it up. The baseball team does it and the fan base eats it up. Also show just a little appreciation for being on the field and representing MSU.
2. Change the attitude of the WHOLE athletic department. That loosing is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. That our university athletics deserve the same considerations as the rest of the conference. Be out in front of promoting our university and athletics. Ole Miss does this with the ?grove?! It?s a myth that has been pushed and pushed by the university to the point that people all over the country think it?s some supper/unbelievable tailgating. When actually it?s just the same tailgating that happens every weekend across the south!
3. Concessions need to dramatically improve! And quit turning a blind eye to this problem!
4. Build more hotels and lodging. Have the university help Starkville in drawing more hotels.
5. Athletic Dept. actually and totally commit to building a real football program. A winning football program. A program with a coach that is young and energetic! Look what Mullen did. We were winning, we had excitement, we had a team that appeared to know their assignments, we had sellout for years.
I?ve said it for years that if MSU would put a actual winning program, a program that actually competes with our conference and competes for championships. That we wouldn?t be able to build a stadium big enough to hold all the fans. See baseball!
Dude! I love every word you said. It is crazy to me most fans I know and read on here don't have an attitude of accepting mediocrity but, for some reason our athletic department does. I don't get it.
I am not a revolutionary guy, unless its against England, but, dang what do we have to do to clean house of this attitude. lol
Also, the interlocking MSU needs to come back full time. I have an old MSU hat and was wearing it a few years back at a conference in Alabama, a dude came up to me and said " Oh, Michigan State" I politely corrected him. This should never happen. Ever!
Just to add on to the mstate banner. I was at a event just this past weekend and wore a mstate banner golf shirt to and event. I was asked multiple times from people that know I'm from Mississippi if I attended Michigan state. So I don't think it is as recognizable as some people like to think.
Interesting write up. I marinated on that very thought since Saturday night. Is the Mississippi State football program any better today, in 2021 even after 2014, bowls, etc., than it was in 1980(my conscious beginning with MSU athletics)?
IN 1990, you had a leader in place that wanted a football program. Dr Z. made the decision to change coaches and hire Jackie. He hired a guy that was a perfect fit for Mississippi State’s culture, Mississippi State’s on campus football talent and the traditional talent that was recruited. The football program got better from 91 to 00.
Lucky for State, in the Jackie era, TV exposure and TV money came into play and helped State do a lot of things that otherwise couldn’t have been accomplished. At this point, the facilities are improved and the budget is growing.
Then Jackie’s done. However, You have poor leadership in place and a poor hire is made. You hire a guy that had to be talked into the job and wanted to bring in an offense that took NFL practice time to install and NFL experience to execute. Just a bad marriage.
Then you get strong leadership in place and a good hire is made. Dan Mullen, regardless of where he is from, was a good fit at MSU. He was so similar to Jackie. Demanding better facilities and the fans show up. Running an offense that MSU can get the athletes to run and playing defense. Dan raises the program another notch or two or three. Dan is bored and leaves.
Then guess what…….you have an AD that decides to reinvent the wheel. (Hello, remember 04-08?) You have this talent on campus to run and play defense. Jackie and Dan have given you the blueprint of what works and works well at MSU. But ……...NO!…… The AD has to be the smartest guy in the room. Let’s hire a guy that is qualified on paper but he turns out to be Croom 2.0. Ok, sometimes hires don’t work….. A pass can be given. But again, terrible terrible terrible decision making…...let’s fire him, no we don’t fire him…...yes fire him. Good grief at the waffling at one of the most important positions in your athletic department. So anyway, at that point, you are stuck with a limited candidate list. Napier, a good fit, you may have gotten in November. But nope, indecision killed that deal. So, You have to hire a guy that is NOT a fit at MSU and runs an offense that will require a total rebuild of the football roster. So, basically everything Jackie and Dan has built…..is bulldozed to make way for a low flying, smoke and mirrors, dink and dunk offense. Not to mention you have to recruit your ass off in the SEC. A huge task that this guy isn’t known to put much effort into.
So, is MSU’s football program better today than it was in 1980? Yes. State has more resources, a bigger alumni base, exposure, money, facilities. However, Losing to Memphis was some 1980s BS though. Back to today, the program is in better shape. However, State has definitely made a decision and started down a totally different path with the football program. It is a huge gamble to take this course.
Other stuff………..Scott field was a tomb in 1980 something. It wasn’t much better in the 90s. Folks would rather go deer hunting than watch State clinch the SECW and a trip to the SECCG. So, I think what State has now for fans and in game entertainment is good and on par with other schools. However, if you want an exciting atmosphere, win. WIN. WIN. WIN. Youll have the best damn hotdogs. Youll have white outs, stripe outs….a full damn fashion show.
If you want people to throw money down on the barrel head and sponsor some random kid with a NIL deal…...you have to WIN. You have to beat Ark and OM last year, beat Memphis this year and again OM this year. People want to be excited about a 3-0 start and the LSU Tigers coming to town. They want to get their MState coffee cup out Monday morning and walk over to the next cube with their chest poked out. People don’t want to hear the excuses about Moorhead did this or that.
Which brings me to my last point, all these excuses the AD is floating out through their mouthpieces……”Moorhead destroyed the program.” “No talent.” blah, blah blah. While there may be some truth to that, it sends the wrong message to the fan base. I don’t know who thought all the poor mouthing to start the season was a good idea but it wasn’t. That certainly isn’t a winning attitude. It makes me feel like there is no point in coming to games. Like I was lied to last year with all the “Mike is so entertaining.” “Air Raid” “50 points a game.” blah blah blah.
That’s my .02 cents on the football program.
Todd, that's a pretty good post. I tend to agree on all points.
Fantastic post.Originally Posted by Todd4State
CAN'T PUT A SADDLE ON A MUSTANG
Quit Your Bi$&$&?!, He's Not Going to Run the Ball More
I think most don’t accept mediocrity, but they do not know how to do anything to change things. Most don’t have the real money to get the ear of the higher ups at MSU, and even if they did, it’s clear that Keenum could not care less.
I think that they would listen however, MSU officials want it to come from a coach. Ron Polk was essentially like that for us. He told MSU how to do baseball. Interestingly enough some of our boosters realized that when Georgia Southern came to a regional at MSU and they actually staged a complex coup where an alum and good baseball guy Jimmy Bragan was removed and essentially hired away by another MSU alum in MLB Alex Grammas to be an assistant for the Brewers which resulted in us getting Polk who realized that Georgia Southern wasn't going to do what he wanted to promote baseball.
That said Dan is probably the only football coach we have ever had even close to that. And Dan's biggest organizational weakness was recruiting. Leach is going to do his own thing but he's not a program builder like that. He is a coach with a really good system that works over time for him. But once he is gone the entire system is gone too. Which is probably a big reason why Texas Tech and Wazzu had struggles after he left. So I think it's really imperative that we hire someone from the Bama/Clemson/Georgia tree if for no other reason than to implement modernized recruiting systems at MSU. Judge fits that. Napier does too.
The most important part that you said was the recruiting. It's the Jimmy' and the Joe's that make the difference.
Let's say each starter gets 75,000 and the two deep gets 50,000 and then everyone else gets something including walk-ons. You can prorate it if a guys gets in there for a game or two. That should be enough to make a difference right? I don't like huge signing day bonus stuff because those guys can sign and leave. It can be performance driven to some degree with added benefits during the season.
You are looking at 3-5 million a year in contributions to the players. I think it will take at least that to make it happen.
We would need 10,000 donors to pony up $300 - 500 each to get that much money together. It can be done but it takes leaders and leaders that can get contributors and it has to be done for multiple years to change things.
Now, it can be done legally with the NIL monies.
I'd like to add to this as well. Posted in another thread but belongs here
Here's the deal guys
We operate on such a thin margin in football where you have to win the games your supposed to like Memphis to get to a bowl. Mullen made a mint out of beating those teams then beating UK and OM and ARK as well. Then every 3 or 4 years we would have a team with older players and would beat not only those teams but maybe best an LSU or AU and AM. In other words we shouldn't have hired a coach that's going to lose games every year to the La Tech and Memphis of the world.
I get the idea of what Cohen wanted to do with moving us into more of the passing offense. There are and have been others we could have gotten that would have "fit" better here than what has been hired. But he failed on the Moorehead hire and now looks like he has on leach as well. We had been to 10 straight bowl games playing that physical (ok, not so much SloMo)down hill running spread so why did Cohen blow this thing up. We found a formula that fit our DNA and Cohen blows it up and now where are? Fitghting for one point wins at home and 2 point losses on the road to Memphis and la tech.
I would love to have much more balanced attack with some big play potential but the air raid is done with ML at the helm
While our biggest rival hired a 46 year old energetic coach we hired and eccentric 60 year old still running an offense that's stuck in 2008.
I could go on and on but you get the idea
Last edited by Dawgfan77; 09-21-2021 at 05:22 PM.
Agreed on all points.
Mississippi desperately needs to grow its population a lot. We are by far the lowest in the Southeast in P5 schools/population ratio. Figure out how to get the population up to 5,000,000 by 2030 and grow the universities accordingly, and a lot of our problems will take care of themselves. (No, I don't know how to do that.)
Agree on a good bit of this - but I totally disagree that Cohen needs to be working on hotel development in Starkville. He needs to stay focused on athletics.
Hotel development is incredibly driven by market economics - and Starkville struggles to meet those markers. That's why the university created a public-private partnership to get a Courtyard at the Cotton Mill.
And it is not unusual at all for college towns to not have enough hotel supply for football weekends. Even places like Athens don't have enough and you have fans from the coast and southern end of the state staying in hotels an hour out on game weekends.
Now, if we build one in the South EZ, then Cohen needs involvement, but other than that, keep him far away.
"After dealing with Ole Miss for over a year," he said, "I've learned to expect their leadership to do and say things that the leadership at other Division I schools would never consider doing and to justify their actions by reminding themselves that "We're Ole Miss.""
- Tom Mars, Esq. 4.9.18
Birds and the bees. duh
But, really this comes down to political leadership to make the state attractive for new business. New business brings in new business, which is jobs, jobs, jobs which in turn brings in people, people, people.
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