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Thread: College Offensive Success is 70%+ About QB Play

  1. #21
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman15 View Post
    Could you provide some statistics to verify that he is less talented? Are you strictly going off the eye test?
    Eye test. Stats are virtually meaningless in this offense & inaccurate to look at unless they're outrageous

    Grade Rogers on following compared to quality college QBs:

    Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

    Speed: Above average, normal, below average

    Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

    Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

    Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

    For me, it breaks down like this:

    Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

    Speed: Above average, normal, below average

    Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

    Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

    Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

    Field vision: Above average, Normal, Below average

    Processing Speed: Above average, Normal, Below average

    would love to hear your thoughts on where you disagree here. It's pointless to talk players unless we're speaking the same language
    Last edited by ShotgunDawg; 09-14-2021 at 09:40 AM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Prediction? Pain.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Most all of his QBs have been more talented than Will though. There is a threshold of athleticism & arm talent needed to run this offense at the D1 level & Will kind of straddles that threshold.
    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman15 View Post
    Could you provide some statistics to verify that he is less talented? Are you strictly going off the eye test?
    Y'all got me curious. Here are Leach's starting QBs at WSU and their 24/7 rating out of high school :

    2012: Jeff Tuel (senior) - 3-star, 0.8243

    2013 - 2014: Connor Halliday (junior - senior) - 3-star, 0.8309

    2015 - 2017: Luke Falk (soph - senior) - 2-star, 0.7667 (walk-on redshirt in 2013; started 5 games in 2014)

    2018: Garner Minshew (senior) - 3-star, 0.8087

    2019: Anthony Gordon (senior) - unrated (JUCO in 2016; RS in 2017; 3rd string in 2018)

    None of those dudes appear to have had any other Power 5 offers. All have spent time with NFL franchises, at least at the offseason/practice-squad level. And Will Rogers was more highly rated out of high school than all of them.

    I know that's all on paper. And I have no idea if Will is going to follow the trend. But still, pretty damn impressive given how stout WSU's offense became after the first couple of years.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Maverick91's Avatar
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    I was in the camp that Rodgers has below average arm strength. I noticed a little in the game, but, really noticed with Wyatt's film study, I think we cannot really judge his arm strength until he starts to step into his throws. Most all of them look like they are coming off his back foot and he hardly ever looks like he is throwing through the pass. It constantly looks like he is just moving is arm and not really using his whole body for the throw.

    I am no QB whisperer or anything, but, that is what I have noticed.

  4. #24
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain. View Post
    Y'all got me curious. Here are Leach's starting QBs at WSU and their 24/7 rating out of high school :

    2012: Jeff Tuel (senior) - 3-star, 0.8243

    2013 - 2014: Connor Halliday (junior - senior) - 3-star, 0.8309

    2015 - 2017: Luke Falk (soph - senior) - 2-star, 0.7667 (walk-on redshirt in 2013; started 5 games in 2014)

    2018: Garner Minshew (senior) - 3-star, 0.8087

    2019: Anthony Gordon (senior) - unrated (JUCO in 2016; RS in 2017; 3rd string in 2018)

    None of those dudes appear to have had any other Power 5 offers. All have spent time with NFL franchises, at least at the offseason/practice-squad level. And Will Rogers was more highly rated out of high school than all of them.

    I know that's all on paper. And I have no idea if Will is going to follow the trend. But still, pretty damn impressive given how stout WSU's offense became after the first couple of years.
    Go watch Youtube. They were all more talented

    3 of those guys are the NFL & Holliday got a shot in the NFL but flaked out.
    Last edited by ShotgunDawg; 09-14-2021 at 09:45 AM.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Maverick91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain. View Post
    Y'all got me curious. Here are Leach's starting QBs at WSU and their 24/7 rating out of high school :

    2012: Jeff Tuel (senior) - 3-star, 0.8243

    2013 - 2014: Connor Halliday (junior - senior) - 3-star, 0.8309

    2015 - 2017: Luke Falk (soph - senior) - 2-star, 0.7667 (walk-on redshirt in 2013; started 5 games in 2014)

    2018: Garner Minshew (senior) - 3-star, 0.8087

    2019: Anthony Gordon (senior) - unrated (JUCO in 2016; RS in 2017; 3rd string in 2018)

    None of those dudes appear to have had any other Power 5 offers. All have spent time with NFL franchises, at least at the offseason/practice-squad level. And Will Rogers was more highly rated out of high school than all of them.

    I know that's all on paper. And I have no idea if Will is going to follow the trend. But still, pretty damn impressive given how stout WSU's offense became after the first couple of years.
    That is really interesting, I know it is pac12 defenses, but, to put up the numbers they put up with the talent they had, that is really something to note.

  6. #26
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick91 View Post
    I was in the camp that Rodgers has below average arm strength. I noticed a little in the game, but, really noticed with Wyatt's film study, I think we cannot really judge his arm strength until he starts to step into his throws. Most all of them look like they are coming off his back foot and he hardly ever looks like he is throwing through the pass. It constantly looks like he is just moving is arm and not really using his whole body for the throw.

    I am no QB whisperer or anything, but, that is what I have noticed.
    Great point. When Will sets his feet & steps into the throw, he arm strength is fine & adequate as are most QB's.

    Problem is, for him to have his feet set & step into the throw, virtually everything has to go right around him. The OL has to block, the WRs are to run their routes correctly, etc.

    For MSU to take the next step on offense, we need a QB that can expand the margin for error by the other players on the field & that typically means they need the ability to move quickly & make strong, accurate throws from off platform positions. That expands the margin for error
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Eye test. Stats are virtually meaningless in this offense & inaccurate to look at unless they're outrageous

    Grade Rogers on following compared to quality college QBs:

    Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

    Speed: Above average, normal, below average

    Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

    Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

    Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

    For me, it breaks down like this:

    Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

    Speed: Above average, normal, below average

    Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

    Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

    Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

    Field vision: Above average, Normal, Below average

    Processing Speed: Above average, Normal, Below average

    would love to hear your thoughts on where you disagree here. It's pointless to talk players unless we're speaking the same language
    It's pointless to talk players when you don't view them objectively using statistics rather than the eye test which is completely biased. You say all of the
    QBs that prediction pain talked about were more talented than Rogers yet they were older than rogers in the system? Would it not be more wise to compare Rogers to them once he has matured to their age rather than a growing QB. You spit your opinion as if it is fact. It doesn't work that way

  8. #28
    Senior Member Tbonewannabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach34 View Post
    2011 and 2015's issues were OL play. We had 4 new starters both years. 2011 was extra bad because of new starters and injuries.
    I believe in 2011 Relf played most of the year with broke ribs or something like that also. 2015 was as much on Mullen being stubborn and trying to force Holloway into a feature back roll. We had running backs on the team that would have been a lot more successful in that offense.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Maverick91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Great point. When Will sets his feet & steps into the throw, he arm strength is fine & adequate as are most QB's.

    Problem is, for him to have his feet set & step into the throw, virtually everything has to go right around him. The OL has to block, the WRs are to run their routes correctly, etc.

    For MSU to take the next step on offense, we need a QB that can expand the margin for error by the other players on the field & that typically means they need the ability to move quickly & make strong, accurate throws from off platform positions. That expands the margin for error
    I agree, but, that brings the question to a bubble - is that an issue that comes with maturity for Rodgers or are we thinking that he has reached his ceiling in that regard? If its maturity, then dang come on Rodgers please grow up this week, fine tune that skill next week and come out and sling it around against LSU and lets make some noise. But, if it is his ceiling, then yeah, Rodgers is a really adequate and annoying place holder.

  10. #30
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman15 View Post
    It's pointless to talk players when you don't view them objectively using statistics rather than the eye test which is completely biased. You say all of the
    QBs that prediction pain talked about were more talented than Rogers yet they were older than rogers in the system? Would it not be more wise to compare Rogers to them once he has matured to their age rather than a growing QB. You spit your opinion as if it is fact. It doesn't work that way
    Ok. Well you can't talk players then.

    Stats are great but they only tell you what has already happened. Unless you've got some kind of predictive algorithm model, you've got to look at physical ingredients to predict what will happen tomorrow, a month from now, or 2 years from now. You have to look at what the player is physically capable of

    and why would I be biased against Rogers? I want him to succeed as much as anyone outside of him & his parents
    CAN'T PUT A SADDLE ON A MUSTANG

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  11. #31
    Senior Member Tbonewannabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Eye test. Stats are virtually meaningless in this offense & inaccurate to look at unless they're outrageous

    Grade Rogers on following compared to quality college QBs:

    Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

    Speed: Above average, normal, below average

    Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

    Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

    Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

    For me, it breaks down like this:

    Arm strength: Above average, normal, below average

    Speed: Above average, normal, below average

    Athleticism: Above average, normal, below average

    Quickness: Above average, normal, below average

    Accuracy: Above average, normal, below average

    Field vision: Above average, Normal, Below average

    Processing Speed: Above average, Normal, Below average

    would love to hear your thoughts on where you disagree here. It's pointless to talk players unless we're speaking the same language
    I would say his accuracy is above average. Other than that, average or below average however he is a true sophomore. I think he was the guy that should have redshirted and then started as a redshirt junior. Not sure it is completely fair to rate him compared to guys their senior years.

  12. #32
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick91 View Post
    I agree, but, that brings the question to a bubble - is that an issue that comes with maturity for Rodgers or are we thinking that he has reached his ceiling in that regard? If its maturity, then dang come on Rodgers please grow up this week, fine tune that skill next week and come out and sling it around against LSU and lets make some noise. But, if it is his ceiling, then yeah, Rodgers is a really adequate and annoying place holder.
    I think he's close to his physical ceiling. Players mostly stay the same, but they just get stronger & smarter. He's got more room to improve mentally than physically. He's pretty much tapped out physically IMO

    I don't see the athleticism for him to improve much physically
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Ok. Well you can't talk players then.

    Stats are great but they only tell you what has already happened. Unless you've got some kind of predictive algorithm model, you've got to look at physical ingredients to predict what will happen tomorrow, a month from now, or 2 years from now. You have to look at what the player is physically capable of
    How are you not a NFL GM by now with all of this knowledge on how an athlete will fill out their frame overtime and how well they will adapt in the future just based off watching them play 8 full collegiate football games

  14. #34
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman15 View Post
    How are you not a NFL GM by now with all of this knowledge on how an athlete will fill out their frame overtime and how well they will adapt in the future just based off watching them play 8 full collegiate football games
    Good heavens. You sound butt hurt
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    Why would I be butt hurt that some one else can't back up their argument with facts?

  16. #36
    Senior Member msstate7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Good heavens. You sound butt hurt
    Critique of will is very personal for some here.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Maverick91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    I think he's close to his physical ceiling. Players mostly stay the same, but they just get stronger & smarter. He's got more room to improve mentally than physically. He's pretty much tapped out physically IMO

    I don't see the athleticism for him to improve much physically
    Yeah, but, I don't see this as a physical issue this is more of mental maturity. Having to set your feet and throw in awkward ways, that just comes with more comfort for the game, and knowledge overall.

  18. #38
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgman15 View Post
    Why would I be butt hurt that some one else can't back up their argument with facts?
    You need facts to evaluate a player?

    Some see it & some don't bud
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  19. #39
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    Critique of will is very personal for some here.
    It's strange how people can't see our players objectively for what they are
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  20. #40
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick91 View Post
    Yeah, but, I don't see this as a physical issue this is more of mental maturity. Having to set your feet and throw in awkward ways, that just comes with more comfort for the game, and knowledge overall.
    Agree. He'll get better but marginally. He's on the floor of the 3rd floor of the building. Perhaps he can get to the ceiling of the 3rd floor or maybe even the floor of the 4th floor of the building. But he can't get to the 6th floor or higher. Not enough physical ingredients.
    CAN'T PUT A SADDLE ON A MUSTANG

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