The Current Status of MSU Football As I See It

[ShotgunDawg]

- Started 14 FR & SO against UGA
- Held UGA to their lowest rushing total in 90 years
- Every point MSU scored was by a FR (Except Ruiz's FGs)
- True FR QB with 4 more years to play that has complete over 80% of his passes in his 1st two starts.
- A new culture of accountability & toughness.
- A Pac 12 & Big 12 coach of the year at the helm for the next decade.

Then we have this quote by Kirby Smart in the post game about his defensive adjustments.

"Really zero. It's patience, like I said. We didn't do anything different. We didn't do anything different from one half to the other. A lot of people think that but if anything we might have rushed four a couple more times but the success rate on these guys when you rush four or five really goes down. They get the ball out so quick. Anybody that played man-to-man with them they torched them. That's what you saw in the LSU game, where they really took advantage of teams playing man-to-man. We played man a couple snaps but one of the snaps we played was a big touchdown. It's like 'Golly, any time you go to change it, bam they hit you.' It's just not worth it. They got a good quarterback. They got a good system. They'll be a force to be reckoned with if the quarterback is that accurate and people continue to play them the way we played them."


So let me get this straight.... we haven't been able to get blue bloods out of man to man defense in 4 decades. 4 decades.... and now they're scared to run it against us because "It's just not worth it"

I'm not saying that by any means we're ready to compete for the West, but the signs are there. The components of what will eventually lead to an SEC Champ competing teams are blossoming in front of our eyes.

I realize losing sucks, but focus on the the ingredients, variables, & where this is headed.

[Dogbone]

- Started 14 FR & SO against UGA
- Held UGA to their lowest rushing total in 90 years
- Every point MSU scored was by a FR (Except Ruiz's FGs)
- True FR QB with 4 more years to play that has complete over 80% of his passes in his 1st two starts.
- A new culture of accountability & toughness.
- A Pac 12 & Big 12 coach of the year at the helm for the next decade.

Then we have this quote by Kirby Smart in the post game about his defensive adjustments.

"Really zero. It's patience, like I said. We didn't do anything different. We didn't do anything different from one half to the other. A lot of people think that but if anything we might have rushed four a couple more times but the success rate on these guys when you rush four or five really goes down. They get the ball out so quick. Anybody that played man-to-man with them they torched them. That's what you saw in the LSU game, where they really took advantage of teams playing man-to-man. We played man a couple snaps but one of the snaps we played was a big touchdown. It's like 'Golly, any time you go to change it, bam they hit you.' It's just not worth it. They got a good quarterback. They got a good system. They'll be a force to be reckoned with if the quarterback is that accurate and people continue to play them the way we played them."


So let me get this straight.... we haven't been able to get blue bloods out of man to man defense in 4 decades. 4 decades.... and now they're scared to run it against us because "It's just not worth it"

I'm not saying that by any means we're ready to compete for the West, but the signs are there. The components of what will eventually lead to an SEC Champ competing teams are blossoming in front of our eyes.

I realize losing sucks, but focus on the the ingredients, variables, & where this is headed.

Good post!

[BuckyIsAB****]

- Started 14 FR & SO against UGA
- Held UGA to their lowest rushing total in 90 years
- Every point MSU scored was by a FR (Except Ruiz's FGs)
- True FR QB with 4 more years to play that has complete over 80% of his passes in his 1st two starts.
- A new culture of accountability & toughness.
- A Pac 12 & Big 12 coach of the year at the helm for the next decade.

Then we have this quote by Kirby Smart in the post game about his defensive adjustments.

"Really zero. It's patience, like I said. We didn't do anything different. We didn't do anything different from one half to the other. A lot of people think that but if anything we might have rushed four a couple more times but the success rate on these guys when you rush four or five really goes down. They get the ball out so quick. Anybody that played man-to-man with them they torched them. That's what you saw in the LSU game, where they really took advantage of teams playing man-to-man. We played man a couple snaps but one of the snaps we played was a big touchdown. It's like 'Golly, any time you go to change it, bam they hit you.' It's just not worth it. They got a good quarterback. They got a good system. They'll be a force to be reckoned with if the quarterback is that accurate and people continue to play them the way we played them."


So let me get this straight.... we haven't been able to get blue bloods out of man to man defense in 4 decades. 4 decades.... and now they're scared to run it against us because "It's just not worth it"

I'm not saying that by any means we're ready to compete for the West, but the signs are there. The components of what will eventually lead to an SEC Champ competing teams are blossoming in front of our eyes.

I realize losing sucks, but focus on the the ingredients, variables, & where this is headed.

It is almost like I know what I?m talking about sometimes. Like I said, all they did in the 2nd half was go more even front looks whether a true DL or a blitzing backer. We had a 2nd and 3 and ended up punting going 3 and out. That was a turning point. Their guy batted a ball down that goes for a huge play if he don?t.

Leach is a winner. The kids that are left are winners. Said it before I will say it again, if you cannot support Leach and this bunch you should go like another team. I was as mad as anyone after the UK and Arky games bc it looked like Leach was scared to move on from KJ. He was not. It is time to get on board or get out IMO.

[Cowbell]

It is almost like I know what I?m talking about sometimes. Like I said, all they did in the 2nd half was go more even front looks whether a true DL or a blitzing backer. We had a 2nd and 3 and ended up punting going 3 and out. That was a turning point. Their guy batted a ball down that goes for a huge play if he don?t.

Leach is a winner. The kids that are left are winners. Said it before I will say it again, if you cannot support Leach and this bunch you should go like another team. I was as mad as anyone after the UK and Arky games bc it looked like Leach was scared to move on from KJ. He was not. It is time to get on board or get out IMO.

It is ok to support a team while at the same time question leadership. I fully support our team, but you and I both know that Leech is learning some things the hard way in this league. He will have to make adjustments to have CONSISTENT success. Not many people are wanting the guy fired...

[Coach34]

It is ok to support a team while at the same time question leadership. I fully support our team, but you and I both know that Leech is learning some things the hard way in this league. He will have to make adjustments to have CONSISTENT success. Not many people are wanting the guy fired...

Good post. To act like Leach hasnt been humbled some this season is being disingenuous

[Prediction? Pain.]

Just score. We are Croom at 17.4 per game. 13th in the SEC

Agree totally that scoring's what matters at the end of day. But the Croom references are kinda over the top, aren't they? We hashsed this out in a thread a few days back, but Croom's offenses (like Jackie's last one in '03) were abominations for five years in a row. Besides, you don't need to go back to Croom. It'd be easier just to say that we're Mullen in years 2 and 3, when we averaged 18.9 and 18.1 points per game in SEC play, good for 11th out of 12 and 9th out of 12. Moorhead's first scoring offense was right there with Mullen's second and third and Leach's first, too, averaging 19.3 points per game in SEC play, good for 12th in the league.

The point's still valid that this may end up being one of our worst offensive teams in the past decade. There are still a few games left to see where this unit stacks up against 2011, which might be the previous low mark. And it's lame that it's come to that. I wish this wasn't how things were rolling right now, though that brings us to the next point . . . .

Good post. To act like Leach hasnt been humbled some this season is being disingenuous

Maybe he has. He's likely faced more NFL talent in our seven games so far as he did in any entire single season at WSU.

But do you think he's more humbled now than he was early on at WSU? The year before Leach got there, WSU was in the Top 10 nationally in passing yards per game, was middle-of-the-pack in the PAC-12 in scoring and total offense, and was in the Top 50 nationally in advanced stats offensive ranks. Leach burned that to the ground in a single year. They were 11th in the PAC 12 in scoring offense, scoring 9.4 points per game less than they had in 2011. (We've dropped by 6 points per game from last year, for what it's worth.) They were 102nd -- repeat: 102nd -- nationally in the FEI rankings out of 124 teams. (They were 44th the year before.) His offense improved some in his second year at WSU, but it still wasn't quite as good as it was before he got there. It took till his third year for them take the next step offensively, and even then it wasn't necessarily a sea change. In year 3, they were still middle of the pack in scoring offense in the PAC 12 and had roughly the same FEI offensive rank as they did the year before he got there.

I mean, the dude was coming off 10 straight winning seasons and 10 straight bowl games, he was at .500 or better in conference play for 9 of those 10 years (he was 12 - 4 in conference during his last two seasons at Tech), and the last offense he coached ended up in the Top 10 nationally in both scoring offense and total offense. And then he just lays a thunderous, colossal turd in the PAC 12, and did so with an offense that the previous year was very similar statistically to what he likes to do. Wouldn't that be just as humbling to Leach as what's happening to our team this year, even without all our other off-the-field crap and roster insanity?

To make the point a different way, consider his debut at WSU in 2012, which was against BYU. WSU lost 30 - 6. But WSU sucks, so whatever, right? Well, Mike Leach's offense was bad even for them. For the first time in over 40 years, WSU failed to score a TD in a season opener. They had 224 yards of total offense, averaged 3.7 yards per play, and rushed for -5 yards against BYU. Now, BYU was a decent team that year, finishing 7-5. But with no wins over ranked opponents and only two wins over Power 5 opponents, BYU wasn't exactly super stiff competition, either. How did this happen? Presto! BYU solved the riddle -- it was that vaunted west coast drop-8 coverage:

So how did BYU stop Leach's . . . high powered air attack[?] [S]imple, drop eight into coverage, and hope that Jeff Tuel wouldn't beat them on tough throws . . . .

You'd think that the air raid has a built-in outlet for the super-conservative defense, but frankly, the air raid's purpose was to get defenses to go INTO zone, not out of it. With more time to make reads, the air raid QB could be a surgeon all game throwing the ball into windows, for big yards. Every air raid QB before Tuel was carefully trained specifically for analyzing and destroying zone coverages, especially with time to throw against three-man rushes.

Unfortunately, Tuel and the WSU offensive line weren't up to the challenge against a really solid BYU team that dared Leach's offense to succeed, but they couldn't respond with anything. Underneath passes were gobbled up by a swarming defense, run plays ruled virtually useless, and any of the pre-organized concept that Leach likes to use were thwarted by the excessively crowded secondary.

Sound familiar? I guess they don't play zone defense in Texas like they do in Utah . . . .

So yeah, Leach could be humbled. But seems just as likely to me that he's just doing what he does. Not saying that wrecking a previously mediocre offense is my preferred method as a fan. Again, it's lame and I'd prefer this not to be part of his process. But he's here and we're doing this, hopefully with the same ultimate results he achieved elsewhere. If not, bummer, we'll move on. But in the meantime, given that this is exactly what happened at his last coaching stop in a different conference, I can't just assume that first-year offensive discombobulation is and can only be SEC domination over an entire system of offense, even without taking into account that some of those other less-than-stellar offenses we've been comparing this one to never, at least in my recollection, played back-to-back (and likely back-to-back-to-back) games with around 50 available scholarship players and underclassmen out the wazoo or proceeded with a season without spring practice despite the fact that they were changing decades' worth of run-first mentality to the air raid at the drop of a hat.

TL;DR: I spend way too much time reading and thinking about college football.

[ShotgunDawg]

Agree totally that scoring's what matters at the end of day. But the Croom references are kinda over the top, aren't they? We hashsed this out in a thread a few days back, but Croom's offenses (like Jackie's last one in '03) were abominations for five years in a row. Besides, you don't need to go back to Croom. It'd be easier just to say that we're Mullen in years 2 and 3, when we averaged 18.9 and 18.1 points per game in SEC play, good for 11th out of 12 and 9th out of 12. Moorhead's first scoring offense was right there with Mullen's second and third and Leach's first, too, averaging 19.3 points per game in SEC play, good for 12th in the league.

The point's still valid that this may end up being one of our worst offensive teams in the past decade. There are still a few games left to see where this unit stacks up against 2011, which might be the previous low mark. And it's lame that it's come to that. I wish this wasn't how things were rolling right now, though that brings us to the next point . . . .



Maybe he has. He's likely faced more NFL talent in our seven games so far as he did in any entire single season at WSU.

But do you think he's more humbled now than he was early on at WSU? The year before Leach got there, WSU was in the Top 10 nationally in passing yards per game, was middle-of-the-pack in the PAC-12 in scoring and total offense, and was in the Top 50 nationally in advanced stats offensive ranks. Leach burned that to the ground in a single year. They were 11th in the PAC 12 in scoring offense, scoring 9.4 points per game less than they had in 2011. (We've dropped by 6 points per game from last year, for what it's worth.) They were 102nd -- repeat: 102nd -- nationally in the FEI rankings out of 124 teams. (They were 44th the year before.) His offense improved some in his second year at WSU, but it still wasn't quite as good as it was before he got there. It took till his third year for them take the next step offensively, and even then it wasn't necessarily a sea change. In year 3, they were still middle of the pack in scoring offense in the PAC 12 and had roughly the same FEI offensive rank as they did the year before he got there.

I mean, the dude was coming off 10 straight winning seasons and 10 straight bowl games, he was at .500 or better in conference play for 9 of those 10 years (he was 12 - 4 in conference during his last two seasons at Tech), and the last offense he coached ended up in the Top 10 nationally in both scoring offense and total offense. And then he just lays a thunderous, colossal turd in the PAC 12, and did so with an offense that the previous year was very similar statistically to what he likes to do. Wouldn't that be just as humbling to Leach as what's happening to our team this year, even without all our other off-the-field crap and roster insanity?

To make the point a different way, consider his debut at WSU in 2012, which was against BYU. WSU lost 30 - 6. But WSU sucks, so whatever, right? Well, Mike Leach's offense was bad even for them. For the first time in over 40 years, WSU failed to score a TD in a season opener. They had 224 yards of total offense, averaged 3.7 yards per play, and rushed for -5 yards against BYU. Now, BYU was a decent team that year, finishing 7-5. But with no wins over ranked opponents and only two wins over Power 5 opponents, BYU wasn't exactly super stiff competition, either. How did this happen? Presto! BYU solved the riddle -- it was that vaunted west coast drop-8 coverage:



Sound familiar? I guess they don't play zone defense in Texas like they do in Utah . . . .

So yeah, Leach could be humbled. But seems just as likely to me that he's just doing what he does. Not saying that wrecking a previously mediocre offense is my preferred method as a fan. Again, it's lame and I'd prefer this not to be part of his process. But he's here and we're doing this, hopefully with the same ultimate results he achieved elsewhere. If not, bummer, we'll move on. But in the meantime, given that this is exactly what happened at his last coaching stop in a different conference, I can't just assume that first-year offensive discombobulation is and can only be SEC domination over an entire system of offense, even without taking into account that some of those other less-than-stellar offenses we've been comparing this one to never, at least in my recollection, played back-to-back (and likely back-to-back-to-back) games with around 50 available scholarship players and underclassmen out the wazoo or proceeded with a season without spring practice despite the fact that they were changing decades' worth of run-first mentality to the air raid at the drop of a hat.

TL;DR: I spend way too much time reading and thinking about college football.

This is an Elite post. Absolutely correct. It couldn’t be anymore clear what’s happening and where we’re headed

[Todd4State]

Agree totally that scoring's what matters at the end of day. But the Croom references are kinda over the top, aren't they? We hashsed this out in a thread a few days back, but Croom's offenses (like Jackie's last one in '03) were abominations for five years in a row. Besides, you don't need to go back to Croom. It'd be easier just to say that we're Mullen in years 2 and 3, when we averaged 18.9 and 18.1 points per game in SEC play, good for 11th out of 12 and 9th out of 12. Moorhead's first scoring offense was right there with Mullen's second and third and Leach's first, too, averaging 19.3 points per game in SEC play, good for 12th in the league.

The point's still valid that this may end up being one of our worst offensive teams in the past decade. There are still a few games left to see where this unit stacks up against 2011, which might be the previous low mark. And it's lame that it's come to that. I wish this wasn't how things were rolling right now, though that brings us to the next point . . . .



Maybe he has. He's likely faced more NFL talent in our seven games so far as he did in any entire single season at WSU.

But do you think he's more humbled now than he was early on at WSU? The year before Leach got there, WSU was in the Top 10 nationally in passing yards per game, was middle-of-the-pack in the PAC-12 in scoring and total offense, and was in the Top 50 nationally in advanced stats offensive ranks. Leach burned that to the ground in a single year. They were 11th in the PAC 12 in scoring offense, scoring 9.4 points per game less than they had in 2011. (We've dropped by 6 points per game from last year, for what it's worth.) They were 102nd -- repeat: 102nd -- nationally in the FEI rankings out of 124 teams. (They were 44th the year before.) His offense improved some in his second year at WSU, but it still wasn't quite as good as it was before he got there. It took till his third year for them take the next step offensively, and even then it wasn't necessarily a sea change. In year 3, they were still middle of the pack in scoring offense in the PAC 12 and had roughly the same FEI offensive rank as they did the year before he got there.

I mean, the dude was coming off 10 straight winning seasons and 10 straight bowl games, he was at .500 or better in conference play for 9 of those 10 years (he was 12 - 4 in conference during his last two seasons at Tech), and the last offense he coached ended up in the Top 10 nationally in both scoring offense and total offense. And then he just lays a thunderous, colossal turd in the PAC 12, and did so with an offense that the previous year was very similar statistically to what he likes to do. Wouldn't that be just as humbling to Leach as what's happening to our team this year, even without all our other off-the-field crap and roster insanity?

To make the point a different way, consider his debut at WSU in 2012, which was against BYU. WSU lost 30 - 6. But WSU sucks, so whatever, right? Well, Mike Leach's offense was bad even for them. For the first time in over 40 years, WSU failed to score a TD in a season opener. They had 224 yards of total offense, averaged 3.7 yards per play, and rushed for -5 yards against BYU. Now, BYU was a decent team that year, finishing 7-5. But with no wins over ranked opponents and only two wins over Power 5 opponents, BYU wasn't exactly super stiff competition, either. How did this happen? Presto! BYU solved the riddle -- it was that vaunted west coast drop-8 coverage:



Sound familiar? I guess they don't play zone defense in Texas like they do in Utah . . . .

So yeah, Leach could be humbled. But seems just as likely to me that he's just doing what he does. Not saying that wrecking a previously mediocre offense is my preferred method as a fan. Again, it's lame and I'd prefer this not to be part of his process. But he's here and we're doing this, hopefully with the same ultimate results he achieved elsewhere. If not, bummer, we'll move on. But in the meantime, given that this is exactly what happened at his last coaching stop in a different conference, I can't just assume that first-year offensive discombobulation is and can only be SEC domination over an entire system of offense, even without taking into account that some of those other less-than-stellar offenses we've been comparing this one to never, at least in my recollection, played back-to-back (and likely back-to-back-to-back) games with around 50 available scholarship players and underclassmen out the wazoo or proceeded with a season without spring practice despite the fact that they were changing decades' worth of run-first mentality to the air raid at the drop of a hat.

TL;DR: I spend way too much time reading and thinking about college football.

Well this is top shelf as usual.

And I'll make a not so bold prediction- next year once we have this system down pretty good and Leach gets the rushing totals back to what his typical norm is the critics will be crowing about how they were right about Leach having to run the ball to be successful- when the reality is that's always been what it typically is.

[RocketDawg]

- Started 14 FR & SO against UGA
- Held UGA to their lowest rushing total in 90 years
- Every point MSU scored was by a FR (Except Ruiz's FGs)
- True FR QB with 4 more years to play that has complete over 80% of his passes in his 1st two starts.
- A new culture of accountability & toughness.
- A Pac 12 & Big 12 coach of the year at the helm for the next decade.

Those are some pretty amazing stats. And each of those freshmen has a full 4 years to play if they choose to. The Covid season is turning out to be pretty good practice for our young team.

[ShotgunDawg]

Those are some pretty amazing stats. And each of those freshmen has a full 4 years to play if they choose to. The Covid season is turning out to be pretty good practice for our young team.

Absolutely. We're developing a new identity and core before our eyes.

[hp22]

I trust the direction of our program and Mike Leach. Let's win our next whether it be this weekend or next.

[ShotgunDawg]

I trust the direction of our program and Mike Leach. Let's win our next whether it be this weekend or next.

But if we don't, all this still applies.

Flags fly forever. Focus on building a program than can raise flags instead of focusing on whether we win or lose today in a game no one will remember in 2 years.

[hp22]

But if we don't, all this still applies.

Flags fly forever. Focus on building a program than can raise flags instead of focusing on whether we win or lose today in a game no one will remember in 2 years.

The results of next week have no impact on my view of the future. Neither do the results of the last month.

Let's continue to play hard and improve. That's all that matters right now. Effort and growth. But you show up to win and I'd love to see some vets go out the right way. Get the young guys busting their ass right now a taste too.

[MetEdDawg]

Here's my hope. Mike Leach has basically forced SEC defenses to do one thing. Play zone. How the zone is executed will change, but for the most part, in less than one season he's dictated how defenses will have to play him.

My hope is that given a proper offseason and another year of learning the system, he will be able to effectively attack both the zone and man. He will have a QB that can diagnose what the defense is giving him and execute it quickly and efficiently.

We saw glimpses of that Saturday. We dictated things for a couple drives and took advantage of what was given to us. If we can continue to do that and take advantage of what the defense is trying to force us to do, we will be very tough to stop. And that's the point of the Leach offense. You give the defense so much to prepare for you confuse the piss out of them and take advantage of it.

[ShotgunDawg]

Here's my hope. Mike Leach has basically forced SEC defenses to do one thing. Play zone. How the zone is executed will change, but for the most part, in less than one season he's dictated how defenses will have to play him.

My hope is that given a proper offseason and another year of learning the system, he will be able to effectively attack both the zone and man. He will have a QB that can diagnose what the defense is giving him and execute it quickly and efficiently.

We saw glimpses of that Saturday. We dictated things for a couple drives and took advantage of what was given to us. If we can continue to do that and take advantage of what the defense is trying to force us to do, we will be very tough to stop. And that's the point of the Leach offense. You give the defense so much to prepare for you confuse the piss out of them and take advantage of it.

This is 100% correct.

That’s what exciting. We haven’t been able to get top level SEC defenses out of man coverage in our history and Leach has done it on 7 games.

Think about that. Think about the gravity of that and what the future will look like when our 5 year starter knows exactly what defense he’s facing every week.

All C34 has talked about for years is how new SEC offensive guys struggle with all the man to man. Well, Leach threw that right out the door.

Are we great against zone yet? No, but for goodness sakes we’ve only got to practice against one thing. My guess is we’ll be excellent against it this time next year.

[Turfdawg67]

Home, Hoops, et al... waiting for us to lose to OM so they can remind us how bad Joe Lee Leach is.

[Irondawg]

agree but how good we become is based on how well we start to attack that zone. We were really patient and efficient Saturday in the first half, but it's a lot to ask college teams to put together multiple 15 plays drives multiple times a game when you are throwing it all the time.

There is so little opportunity for dynamic plays in what we're seeing so we have to find a way to thrash some of these zones for 7-10 yards a play vs. 4-5 yards a play so perhaps we can get some teams to think about getting out of the 8 man zone.

[ShotgunDawg]

agree but how good we become is based on how well we start to attack that zone. We were really patient and efficient Saturday in the first half, but it's a lot to ask college teams to put together multiple 15 plays drives multiple times a game when you are throwing it all the time.

There is so little opportunity for dynamic plays in what we're seeing so we have to find a way to thrash some of these zones for 7-10 yards a play vs. 4-5 yards a play so perhaps we can get some teams to think about getting out of the 8 man zone.

Once we have the right personnel at slot WR, those 4-6 yard passes will turn into more big plays. We lack the quickness at WR to make the LB or safety miss to get YAK yards. Once Leach gets his WRs in here, that'll change.

I completely agree with what you're saying right now. Austin Williams, Osiris, Gardner, etc lack the quickness & agility to make that first guy miss occasionally. Once we have WRs that can do that, it's going to be a problem

Right now the zone offense is throw a 4 yard pass, turn around, & get tackled by a LB or safety. Once we have the right WRs, it'll be: catch a 4 yard pass, turn around & juke 1 guy, then turn up field for another 10 yards. We don't have the juke button yet

[Coach34]

If we are hanging the hopes of the future of our offense on "breaking tackles" we are going to be severely disappointed

[HailStateSZN19]

If we are hanging the hopes of the future of our offense on "breaking tackles" we are going to be severely disappointed

I have a feeling you’ll find a way to be disappointed with our offense no matter what.....lol

Only way you’d approve of it or say something optimistic is if you ran it yourself LOL.