The wheels are falling off....

[dawgday166]

One big difference. Saban cares about winning and will do anything to win. Moorhead and Leach care about doing it their way and had rather lose doing it his way than win in some other way.

If Saban had taken over this team ... you'd probably be seeing something similar. And y'all would be ready to fire him cause he'd be "washed up" or whatnot. Why? Cause we're supposed to win 8 every year regardless of coach and/or talent.

Saban went 6-6 his 1st year at Bama losing to La Monroe and Croom, with a LOT more talent and experience on the roster, and with 4 patsy Nonconference games.

[msstate7]

If Saban had taken over this team ... you'd probably be seeing something similar. And y'all would be ready to fire him cause he'd be "washed up" or whatnot. Why? Cause we're supposed to win 8 every year regardless of coach and/or talent.

Saban went 6-6 his 1st year at Bama losing to La Monroe and Croom, with a LOT more talent and experience on the roster, and with 4 patsy Nonconference games.

Dawgday, saban wins with talent. No one was concerned with his first year bc he was recruiting a top 5 class. If leach had a top 5 class, no one would be concerned. Leach is supposed to be a coach that wins with a talent deficit.

[Jarius]

Dawgday, saban wins with talent. No one was concerned with his first year bc he was recruiting a top 5 class. If leach had a top 5 class, no one would be concerned. Leach is supposed to be a coach that wins with a talent deficit.

He won 3 games his first year at Washington State. The talent deficit didn’t disappear after that, it simply changed to guys who fit what he was running and they got reps in his system.

[dawgday166]

Dawgday, saban wins with talent. No one was concerned with his first year bc he was recruiting a top 5 class. If leach had a top 5 class, no one would be concerned. Leach is supposed to be a coach that wins with a talent deficit.

Correct. But Leach has virtually no offensive talent on this year's club that ain't true Fr. That's not his fault. Of course he had to clean up the culture too and ran a few older guys off. It is what it is.

Saban went 6-6 with talent and experience. Had a full spring/fall/etc. Ran a simpler offense from standpoint of the amount of responsibility the QB has at line of scrimmage to check into correct play. Lot of responsibility due to autonomy and reads given to QBs and WRs in Leach's offense.

If Saban was at MSU this year as a coach coming from, let's say Mich St., in today's climate and with these rules, you'd probably see a lot of the same opting outs occurring as you do now. And probably not much better results too.

[Dawgfan77]

He won 3 games his first year at Washington State. The talent deficit didn’t disappear after that, it simply changed to guys who fit what he was running and they got reps in his system.

Bro... I been reading your post in this subject and I can tell you with all due respect you have no idea how bad things are. You want to bring up WSU and leach.... the previous HC at WSU was 9-40 in 4 years. He walked into a dumpster fire. With O talent in the PAC 12. You cannot compare. Leach system has been broken by the SEC DC. He won't win here it's the easiest offense to defend. End of argument. One more thing to point out. He is about to run off some more people and we are going to be in jeopardy of losing the rest of the season. Things are very bad in Vegas

[Prediction? Pain.]

Bro... I been reading your post in this subject and I can tell you with all due respect you have no idea how bad things are. You want to bring up WSU and leach.... the previous HC at WSU was 9-40 in 4 years. He walked into a dumpster fire. With O talent in the PAC 12. You cannot compare. Leach system has been broken by the SEC DC. He won't win here it's the easiest offense to defend. End of argument. One more thing to point out. He is about to run off some more people and we are going to be in jeopardy of losing the rest of the season. Things are very bad in Vegas

I won't defend the offense this year or claim that WSU in the decade before Leach was the same type of program as State over the past 10 years. But focusing on the offense specifically, there are some points worth comparing.

In 2011, WSU had a pass-heavy, mediocre-to-ok offense. They were 8th in the PAC-12 in scoring offense and total offense in conference games, and were 44th and 51st nationally in FEI and S&P+ offensive ratings. And by "pass heavy," I mean that in conference play they were 3rd in passing yards per game and 11th in rushing yards per game. The run-pass split of their total yards was 24% run, 76% pass. They had a senior quarterback that year, but freshman Connor Halliday played in four games (and started two) and passed for nearly 1000 yards, so Leach had him coming back.

You'd figure with an offense that passed so much -- I mean, a run to pass ratio of 24/76 sounds like the air raid to me, right? -- the transition would be at least sort of smooth. Well, it wasn't. At all. WSU's offense in Leach's first year regressed across the board. The in-conference total passing yards increased a tad (by 40 yards per game) but the yards per pass attempt, passer rating, and completion % all went down and interceptions when from 10 to 16. The rushing yards, which were already really low, fell off the map -- from 83 yards per game in 2011 to freaking 18 yards per game in 2012.

Here's a good summation -- WSU's 44th national ranking in FEI offense in 2011 dropped to 102nd in 2012 under Leach. In other words, WSU's mediocre Power 5 offense from 2011 bottomed out in Leach's first year.

How about State? Last year, our offense was similarly mediocre. FEI had us at 35th nationally and S&P+ had us at 36th. We were 6th and 8th in the conference in total offense and scoring offense in SEC games. But unlike WSU in 2011, we were a run-heavy offense. Third in the conference in rushing yards per game, 12th in passing yards. Also, we had one of the worst if not the worst pass-blocking offensive lines in college football under Moorhead. In 2018 our sack rate was 99th in the country. And in 2019, in was 119th. (Last year, 10% of every pass we attempted resulted in a sack. Think about that for a minute. Damn. (Right now, for what it's worth, we're 68th nationally in sack rate.))

And this year, like WSU in 2012, Leach took our mediocre offense from last season and gutted it. Leach finished his first season at WSU with the 102nd best offense in the country per FEI (out of 124 teams). Right now we're at 101st out of 130.

Again, this isn't meant to justify anything. It's just perspective. It happened the last time he took over a program and it's happening again here. Hopefully he can pull it off at MSU like he did at WSU. If not, the suckitude for the next year or two is going to be even worse.

[Todd4State]

I won't defend the offense this year or claim that WSU in the decade before Leach was the same type of program as State over the past 10 years. But focusing on the offense specifically, there are some points worth comparing.

In 2011, WSU had a pass-heavy, mediocre-to-ok offense. They were 8th in the PAC-12 in scoring offense and total offense in conference games, and were 44th and 51st nationally in FEI and S&P+ offensive ratings. And by "pass heavy," I mean that in conference play they were 3rd in passing yards per game and 11th in rushing yards per game. The run-pass split of their total yards was 24% run, 76% pass. They had a senior quarterback that year, but freshman Connor Halliday played in four games (and started two) and passed for nearly 1000 yards, so Leach had him coming back.

You'd figure with an offense that passed so much -- I mean, a run to pass ratio of 24/76 sounds like the air raid to me, right? -- the transition would be at least sort of smooth. Well, it wasn't. At all. WSU's offense in Leach's first year regressed across the board. The in-conference total passing yards increased a tad (by 40 yards per game) but the yards per pass attempt, passer rating, and completion % all went down and interceptions when from 10 to 16. The rushing yards, which were already really low, fell off the map -- from 83 yards per game in 2011 to freaking 18 yards per game in 2012.

Here's a good summation -- WSU's 44th national ranking in FEI offense in 2011 dropped to 102nd in 2012 under Leach. In other words, WSU's mediocre Power 5 offense from 2011 bottomed out in Leach's first year.

How about State? Last year, our offense was similarly mediocre. FEI had us at 35th nationally and S&P+ had us at 36th. We were 6th and 8th in the conference in total offense and scoring offense in SEC games. But unlike WSU in 2011, we were a run-heavy offense. Third in the conference in rushing yards per game, 12th in passing yards. Also, we had one of the worst if not the worst pass-blocking offensive lines in college football under Moorhead. In 2018 our sack rate was 99th in the country. And in 2019, in was 119th. (Last year, 10% of every pass we attempted resulted in a sack. Think about that for a minute. Damn. (Right now, for what it's worth, we're 68th nationally in sack rate.))

And this year, like WSU in 2012, Leach took our mediocre offense from last season and gutted it. Leach finished his first season at WSU with the 102nd best offense in the country per FEI (out of 124 teams). Right now we're at 101st out of 130.

Again, this isn't meant to justify anything. It's just perspective. It happened the last time he took over a program and it's happening again here. Hopefully he can pull it off at MSU like he did at WSU. If not, the suckitude for the next year or two is going to be even worse.

Outstanding! When I'm talking about context and patience this is what I am talking about.

We need more posts like this from our fans and less "It's not going to work!" six games in.

[Dawgfan77]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening

[HoopsDawg]

It's very, very difficult to overcome 2 bad coaching hires in a row. Our program and by extension our University is in serious trouble.

[dawgday166]

Outstanding! When I'm talking about context and patience this is what I am talking about.

We need more posts like this from our fans and less "It's not going to work!" six games in.

I really don't see how we can tell this year if it works or not yet, or if it will work or not.

We'll have to wait till next year and maybe even till 2 years from now to see how it works. We're so young and under-developed everywhere on offense with talent gaps there that it will take a while to fill the offensive roster back up with quality and depth of really good players.

And I'm not talking about a bunch of 4 and 5* guys either. I'm talking about high 3* and low 4* guys that can mature and grow into their bodies that have speed and athleticism. It takes a while to produce upper tier talent from that paradigm. However, isn't that how Mullen did it (don't y'all remember)?? Leach will probably have recruit/develop in a very similar manner. Especially when recruiting against Bama/AU/LSU/OM.

[bulldawg28]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening

Old school dictator dinosaurs don't work in 2020.

[Cowbell]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening

Thanks for the insight - unfortunately we could see this coming. Some guys are way overthinking this.

[KOdawg1]

Well what I'm hearing is basically he has lost the team and the season is in jeopardy due to players leaving. It's not good what's happening

I'm okay if the season gets canceled at this point. I'd rather not watch us lose to OM

[Dawgfan77]

I'm okay if the season gets canceled at this point. I'd rather not watch us lose to OM

Completely understand but where I draw the line is the fact we will have to forfeit the year because his dumbass decided to be an unrealistic hard ass and run players off. Factor in injuries and we are about to basically forfeiting the season. Long term it's not a good look.

[HoopsDawg]

Completely understand but where I draw the line is the fact we will have to forfeit the year because his dumbass decided to be an unrealistic hard ass and run players off. Factor in injuries and we are about to basically forfeiting the season. Long term it's not a good look.

Absolutely awful. You can't be a hard ass if you haven't earned the respect and trust of your players.

[Activated Alpha]

So can we get some credible sources of what you guys are hearing? I've only been reading lately, but Hoops has a burning hatred for Leach. That's clearly evident. However, I would like to hear from other people about the doom and gloom you guys are saying.

[ShotgunDawg]

Old school dictator dinosaurs don't work in 2020.

Especially when they don’t have Spring practice

[Leeshouldveflanked]

So if we have to forfeit the rest of the season can we still get Reps in?

[ShotgunDawg]

So if we have to forfeit the rest of the season can we still get Reps in?

Question is: is that a fireable offense?

[Jarius]

Bro... I been reading your post in this subject and I can tell you with all due respect you have no idea how bad things are. You want to bring up WSU and leach.... the previous HC at WSU was 9-40 in 4 years. He walked into a dumpster fire. With O talent in the PAC 12. You cannot compare. Leach system has been broken by the SEC DC. He won't win here it's the easiest offense to defend. End of argument. One more thing to point out. He is about to run off some more people and we are going to be in jeopardy of losing the rest of the season. Things are very bad in Vegas

Have a blessed day.