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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISHDAWG View Post
    really? Define successful .... any conference championships or appearances in a conf championship game? Any division titles? ...... if not then successful is being defined as an average 7 win season
    So dan wasn't successful in his tenure here? Got it. Lord have mercy.

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    Senior Member FISHDAWG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Those 7.3 wins include 3 rebuilding projects and 2 of which aren't top 40 recruiters.

    As for the stubbornness, it's been 4 games. 4 freaking games.
    how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly
    OXFORD, Miss. (WTVA) - Ole Miss campus police ask students to behave at future baseball games following a recent incident.
    The university said students were reportedly throwing rocks at Georgia baseball players during last weekend's series.

  3. #63
    Senior Member FISHDAWG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by confucius say View Post
    So dan wasn't successful in his tenure here? Got it. Lord have mercy.
    Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success
    OXFORD, Miss. (WTVA) - Ole Miss campus police ask students to behave at future baseball games following a recent incident.
    The university said students were reportedly throwing rocks at Georgia baseball players during last weekend's series.

  4. #64
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISHDAWG View Post
    how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly
    Joe didn't have 20 years of track record and Joe was also following Mullen so it made the regression so much easier to see.

    At this point, I don't know what our offense players have been taught for 2 years.

    As for the track record though, that's pretty elementary and obvious to understand
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach34 View Post
    This is not a true post. Texas Tech had not had a losing season in the last 7 years before Leach. They were 35-23 in the 5 years before Leach with a 24-15 conference record. They pushed Spike Dykes out because they wanted a coach to get them to the conference championship game. Leach didnt make it happen.
    I guess that depends on what your definition of rebuilding is. The way I see it Tech all through the 90's aside from two losing seasons they rode the fence line barely finishing above .500 with several seasons at .500. If that's successful to you then I guess. It's clear that Leach took Tech to the next level which they had never been at before.

    In Spike's 13 years there he went 82-67. A .550 win percentage. Outside of two anomaly years where he won 9 games he never won more than 7.

    Leach at Tech during 9 years went 84-43 .661. Leach at Tech was the equivalent of Mullen at State. Tech and State had some success here and there usually far and few between but never consistent until those two arrived. As far as competing for the conference championship Tech arguably should've had a chance in '08 but was snubbed from being able to be included in the cointoss between OK and TX.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FISHDAWG View Post
    Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success
    This was my main concern as well. Why go through all that for a coach whose track record is middling to modest success. Then when I read all the talk about CML doing more with less and the talent gaps he had to overcome, plus the quality D MSU has been able to churn out over the years, something CML teams haven't been known for in the past, I bought in and got really excited.

    Leach had never gone so long without an offensive touchdown, never not scored at least one touchdown per game, until this year. No matter how it's sliced, he's never struggled like this. Maybe Dan's JUCO heavy lackluster recruiting at the end (especially OL) plays a huge role in this. If so, does Moorhead get slack for his on the field performance and was his getting fired strictly about disciplinary issues?

    I'm going to support the Bulldogs no matter what. Always have, always will. But dang I loathed the Croom years, when support barely rose above apathy.

  7. #67
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaChicagoDog View Post
    This was my main concern as well. Why go through all that for a coach whose track record is middling to modest success. Then when I read all the talk about CML doing more with less and the talent gaps he had to overcome, plus the quality D MSU has been able to churn out over the years, something CML teams haven't been known for in the past, I bought in and got really excited.

    Leach had never gone so long without an offensive touchdown, never not scored at least one touchdown per game, until this year. No matter how it's sliced, he's never struggled like this. Maybe Dan's JUCO heavy lackluster recruiting at the end (especially OL) plays a huge role in this. If so, does Moorhead get slack for his on the field performance and was his getting fired strictly about disciplinary issues?

    I'm going to support the Bulldogs no matter what. Always have, always will. But dang I loathed the Croom years, when support barely rose above apathy.
    The all conference schedule has a lot to do with it.

    Mixing Alabama State into the middle of this would've been helpful for gaining confidence and rhythm. We're having to figure it out again top 25 defenses rather than the typical non-conference games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISHDAWG View Post
    Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success
    "limited success to a degree" That's how you define dans tenure here?
    Dan averaged 7.1-4.9 here over a decade. Bowl every year after year 1. The sec and the cfb world overwhelmingly label his time here a success. If our fans cant call that a success, we are the problem.

    If leach stays here a decade and averages 7+ wins a year and never misses a bowl after year one, he will be labeled a success by the cfb world regardless if we ever win the west.

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    Senior Member DownwardDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISHDAWG View Post
    how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly
    Totally different situation. What we saw immediately with Joe Mo was an extremely undisciplined team that was horribly out of shape. He turned them into a bunch of pus*^*# within months. Leach has a lot more work to do than moorehead did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by confucius say View Post
    "limited success to a degree" That's how you define dans tenure here?
    Dan averaged 7.1-4.9 here over a decade. Bowl every year after year 1. The sec and the cfb world overwhelmingly label his time here a success. If our fans cant call that a success, we are the problem.

    If leach stays here a decade and averages 7+ wins a year and never misses a bowl after year one, he will be labeled a success by the cfb world regardless if we ever win the west.
    The problem is that there is a faction of our fan base who thinks we're Alabama, UGA, LSU, etc. What Dan did is the blueprint for how to be successful at outlier SEC schools such as State, Ole Miss, Mizzou, USCe, UK, etc. You win between 6 to 8 for the first two years of a recruiting class and then you hope to catch some breaks in years 3 and 4 and put yourself in the playoff conversation. It's what he did in 14 and 15 and what he was set up to do in 18 because we had peaked a year before he thought we would in 17.

    We're a developmental program and always have been. You have to be able to bring kids in at all skills levels, whether 5 star or no star and max out their contributions at the end of 3 to 4 years. We can only have 2 to 3 misses a class. Dan was amazing at doing this. Look at guys like McKinney, Slay, Preston Smith, Cam Lawrence, Dillon Day, Ben Beckwith, JBanks, Fitz, and the list goes on and on. Then you look at higher rated guys like Simmons, Jones, Sweat, KJ Wright and it's the same thing. We were able to get everything out of each one of those guys because of CULTURE. It's what we lost under Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by confucius say View Post
    "limited success to a degree" That's how you define dans tenure here?
    Dan averaged 7.1-4.9 here over a decade. Bowl every year after year 1. The sec and the cfb world overwhelmingly label his time here a success. If our fans cant call that a success, we are the problem.

    If leach stays here a decade and averages 7+ wins a year and never misses a bowl after year one, he will be labeled a success by the cfb world regardless if we ever win the west.
    This

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    Quote Originally Posted by FISHDAWG View Post
    Dan succeeded in bringing us out of the cellar and getting us to bowl games but he really blew it on real opportunities ... so yes he had limited success to a degree but he was also a 1st time head coach for us.... ML has been a HC for 18 years before coming here - expectations should be a little higher for him and I would bet that Dan will win at least a division title in his first 19 years ...... If you want to say ML elevated WSU to average 7 win seasons and bowl games and consider that as success then go ahead .... We just have different opinions of success
    #1 True. We still had a real shot at being in the playoffs in 2014 had we not lost to OM. We were #4 in the rankings at the time. Dan blew it when it really counted.

    #2 Absolutely. The difference being that Dan is at a blue blood now. Dan is a good coach and coaching at a blue blood raking in the star recruits will counteract some of his tendency to blow it in big games. He'll win the SEC East eventually mostly because Bama isn't in there with him. Now as long as Saban is coaching SEC title is another story.

    #3 No question that Leach put WSU on the map. Outside of a few 10 win years in the early '00s WSU has perennially been a doormat since it's inception. Before '11 WSU all time record sat at 424-480 a consistent loser. They achieved their first ever 11 win season under Leach.

    #4 Yes.

  13. #73
    Senior Member StateDawg44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FISHDAWG View Post
    how far into JoMo's season did it take you to realize he wasn't the guy ? Most of us saw it pretty quickly


    Funny because game 4 of Moorhead's career was that awful Kentucy loss in the pouring down rain.

    I do feel like I remember people saying "square peg, round hole" etc. after that loss. Might not have been quite that soon though.

    On the flip side you had people making excuse. The rain, lack of effort, coaching, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    The all conference schedule has a lot to do with it.

    Mixing Alabama State into the middle of this would've been helpful for gaining confidence and rhythm. We're having to figure it out again top 25 defenses rather than the typical non-conference games.
    No no no. I'm so glad we don't have a chance to embarrass ourselves against non P5 opponents. We are that bad offensively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowbell View Post
    No no no. I'm so glad we don't have a chance to embarrass ourselves against non P5 opponents. We are that bad offensively.
    You right about that part. We could not execute against any decently coached team right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve View Post
    The problem is that there is a faction of our fan base who thinks we're Alabama, UGA, LSU, etc. What Dan did is the blueprint for how to be successful at outlier SEC schools such as State, Ole Miss, Mizzou, USCe, UK, etc. You win between 6 to 8 for the first two years of a recruiting class and then you hope to catch some breaks in years 3 and 4 and put yourself in the playoff conversation. It's what he did in 14 and 15 and what he was set up to do in 18 because we had peaked a year before he thought we would in 17.

    We're a developmental program and always have been. You have to be able to bring kids in at all skills levels, whether 5 star or no star and max out their contributions at the end of 3 to 4 years. We can only have 2 to 3 misses a class. Dan was amazing at doing this. Look at guys like McKinney, Slay, Preston Smith, Cam Lawrence, Dillon Day, Ben Beckwith, JBanks, Fitz, and the list goes on and on. Then you look at higher rated guys like Simmons, Jones, Sweat, KJ Wright and it's the same thing. We were able to get everything out of each one of those guys because of CULTURE. It's what we lost under Joe
    Joe ruining our culture is the number one problem we have right now. And this from the President of the Dan Mullen recruiting sins fan club.

    I think Leach will fix both issues.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by StateDawg44 View Post
    Funny because game 4 of Moorhead's career was that awful Kentucy loss in the pouring down rain.

    I do feel like I remember people saying "square peg, round hole" etc. after that loss. Might not have been quite that soon though.

    On the flip side you had people making excuse. The rain, lack of effort, coaching, etc.
    I'm still fine being on the record giving a coach a pass on one bad game. That's reasonable. Even with the benefit of hindsight. I can't think of one coach that hasn't had a bad game.

  18. #78
    Senior Member Maroonthirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    The all conference schedule has a lot to do with it.

    s.
    No logic. Speculation.

    Lane Kiffens offense has done just fine at OM. Under the Same circumstances.
    Last edited by Maroonthirteen; 10-31-2020 at 07:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hot Rock View Post
    You right about that part. We could not execute against any decently coached team right now.
    I keep being so thankful for this thinking back over some of the embarrassment Arkansas took last year. We would certainly drop one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StateDawg44 View Post
    So you're saying the big -12 and pac-12 are good comps for playing in the SEC? Even Steven huh? Same talent all across the conferences right? Guess that's where we lose each other.

    I agree, the jobs he had in those conferences line up with where MSU might line up in the pecking order of the SEC. You are right about that. Put him in the ACC, do you think he would have more success so far than he has this year in the SEC? Hypothetical, I know. No more hypothetical that clutching onto his career record.

    I'm not comparing him to Moorhead. He is a better head coach than Moorhead. Try not to get caught up on that. I'm comparing the fan's reactions to Moorhead and Leach so far and how so many fans "saw the writing on the wall" on Moorhead with a slightly smaller sample size so far from Leach. For God's sake 'Gun is being the voice of reason for a lot of people so far this season.

    If Leach had won a Natty at the previous schools he coached does that mean we should hang our hat on that too? Previous wins don't carry over to the next year or division or conference ya know?

    I'll admit I supported Moorhead until the Tennessee game. I'll do the same if not more for Leach. But we can't get through this year fast enough at this point.

    Bottom line, his wins at TT & WSU do MSU absolutely no good.
    100000% correct. It's cynical for fans to ignore Leach in all of his tenure has never struggled to this degree on offense. Regardless of what the narrative of excuses are for him we have enough talent to score touchdowns. The irony of the situation is being he's coached so long he should have figured this out.

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