George Washington/Thomas Jefferson - 4th of July ... Drawing the line??

[dawgday166]

There are lots of mean SOBs that have served as military commanders in this country--Lee, Jackson, Sherman, etc. But only the former took up arms against his own brothers in order to fight to maintain slavery. That distinction matters, sorry.

As I said .. you know very little about Lee & Jackson or their motivations for fighting the war. Or their history of service to the US prior to the war. Just an example, Jackson's service in the Mexican War earned him 3 promotions in rank, the only person in that war to be promoted 3 times.

Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.

[TUSK]

Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.

Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...

[Commercecomet24]

This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.

That is so well put. This is a very complex issue and it's not just so cut and dried.

[BrunswickDawg]

This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.

Most of us in the south are in that same boat. My 3x great grandfather raised a Calvary unit in Missouri, and end up a Captain under Quantrill. I'm pretty sure he owned slaves. After the war, he was a Jim Crow era legislator in Arkansas. I think part of the hard reckoning that we have to have with ourselves is to come to terms with respecting the memory of family while at the same time understanding what they were doing was wrong. You don't have to disown them, just recognize how that history impacts us today.

[Lord McBuckethead]

Most of us in the south are in that same boat. My 3x great grandfather raised a Calvary unit in Missouri, and end up a Captain under Quantrill. I'm pretty sure he owned slaves. After the war, he was a Jim Crow era legislator in Arkansas. I think part of the hard reckoning that we have to have with ourselves is to come to terms with respecting the memory of family while at the same time understanding what they were doing was wrong. You don't have to disown them, just recognize how that history impacts us today.

My family lineage came from Germany. I am sure some of them fought for the nazis. Screw them.
Who really gives a shit about our family members that fought for something 160 years ago. Its not like they raised you.

[TUSK]

My family lineage came from Germany. I am sure some of them fought for the nazis. Screw them.
Who really gives a shit about our family members that fought for something 160 years ago. Its not like they raised you.

Do you feel as though you owe Jews "reparations" for what your ancestors did?

[Todd4State]

Do you feel as though you owe Jews "reparations" for what your ancestors did?

I'm still waiting on reparations from Ikea for what the Vikings did to my British ancestors.

[PKADogs55]

I'm still waiting on reparations from Ikea for what the Vikings did to my British ancestors.

Todd .. as always, voice of reason. And yes, I completely agree.

[TUSK]

I'm still waiting on reparations from Ikea for what the Vikings did to my British ancestors.

Exactly... I feel as though my white trash, redneck brethren (and myself) have been similarly oppressed...

Can I get an "Oppression EBT Card"? I could really use 100# of yeast and some copper line...

ETA: I tee'd that one up for Beardo

[starkvegasdawg]

It wasn't about him being a slave owner - it was about things like this -


And I'm not defending vandalism - but, Churchill is long known to be a very complex and controversial figure in England -
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767

Now be honest, you think 1/10 of 1% of the dumbasses out there tearing down statues have any 17ing clue who Churchill is...much less that he made that quote? All they see is a statue of a white guy and that's enough.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did more for this country than any of these ANTIFA morons could do in 10 lifetimes. They are heroes and simply men of their time period. We can't judge men (and women) of the past like they are living in 2020. They had bigger issues to deal with in 1776- mostly fighting off the British so that they would not be hung in London.

Tearing down the statues isn't about avenging past injustices. It's about removing the history, customs, and traditions of the United States of America. Muhammed owned slaves and was married to multiple young girls. Are we going to start tearing down mosques too? And just for reference I am not for tearing down anything, including mosques. But contrast examples like these really show you where the "protesters'" motivations really are aimed.

[turkish]

Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.

[dawgday166]

Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.

Yes he did. And he did some pretty bad things to white folks (Congressmen & Chief Justice) and horrible things to Native Americans during the war that most people don't know about. Free speech didn't mean much around that time.

Complicated era and there have been hundreds of throughout history. Same with before and after the war with Irish immigrants in factories or Chinese building the railroads. Some folks/races were abused at times ... not arguing that at all. Whites up north were not all fighting to end slavery cause ... then they'd compete for jobs. Different folks fought for different things. The central issue was slavery tho without a doubt.

[BrunswickDawg]

Now be honest, you think 1/10 of 1% of the dumbasses out there tearing down statues have any 17ing clue who Churchill is...much less that he made that quote? All they see is a statue of a white guy and that's enough.

I won't pretend to know because I wasn't there, but you also should presume that Brits don't know their own history, or that all protestors are a bunch of ignorant loons. Even intelligent people do dumb shit.

[Quaoarsking]

Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.

Yes, but actions speak louder than words, do they not?

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Sherman was a SOB...No matter who?s side he was on.

[BeardoMSU]

Sherman was a SOB...No matter who?s side he was on.

No, not really.

[TUSK]

No, not really.

This is one of those "ever who wins ends up on the right side of history type thingies"....

It's my understanding that Sherman made war so brutal in an effort to end it sooner...

And, as a former Marine, I can totally dig it... That being said, an "SOB" is an "SOB", regardless of what side of history one is on, IMO...

However, if one's conscious is clear, I say "light em up".....

[BeardoMSU]

This is one of those "ever who wins ends up on the right side of history type thingies"....

It's my understanding that Sherman made war so brutal in an effort to end it sooner...

And, as a former Marine, I can totally dig it... That being said, an "SOB" is an "SOB", regardless of what side of history one is on, IMO...

However, if one's conscious is clear, I say "light em up".....

I suppose you're right here, given that just about every successful military commander was probably a giant SOB, ex. Patton, Teddy, Eisenhower, MacAuthur, Grant, et al.

To your other point about "who wins the war", there's a really good documentary from 2003 titled "The Fog of War", which focuses on Robert S. McNamara, and his service as Sec. of Defense. In the doc he talks about how if the US had ended up losing WWII we would've most likely been brought up on war crimes for our fire bombing of Japanese civilians, which we were doing in droves prior to dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[TUSK]

I suppose you're right here, given that just about every successful military commander was probably a giant SOB, ex. Patton, Teddy, Eisenhower, MacAuthur, Grant, et al.

To your other point about "who wins the war", there's a really good documentary from 2003 titled "The Fog of War", which focuses on Robert S. McNamara, and his service as Sec. of Defense. In the doc he talks about how if the US had ended up losing WWII we would've most likely been brought up on war crimes for our fire bombing of Japanese civilians, which we were doing in droves prior to dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Saw it... it was outstanding.

The US went all "Sherman" on the Axis... the US actually "spared" Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the incendiary ordnance (as I understand) so we could gauge the effectiveness of atomic weapons...

ETA: were "incendiaries" outlawed in 1944ish??? I thought that happened later... not that it really matters...

when assholes are assholes; refer to my "light em up" quote...