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Thread: George Washington/Thomas Jefferson - 4th of July ... Drawing the line??

  1. #61
    Senior Member Commercecomet24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    I'm sure there are many on message boards that disagree with this. LOL.



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    I wish ol Rollo would've left me some of that Viking royal family wealth lol!

  2. #62
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    In regards to the revisionist history and statues, some of you are close but I think you're missing a key insight.

    These statues aren't being torn down just cause and I disagree that we need to determine based on the "why" they were put up in keeping them or not. History is written by the victors. It is not "revisionist history" to go back and look at the facts of that. The revisionist history was already put in place. It's now a correcting of inaccurate history. We are undergoing unrevisionist history if you will.

    As for the "why"... the question should not be about why they were put up. The question should be about is that "why" even correct. Was this person who we celebrate him as?

    Let's take for example, a man i believe to be unjustly revered as one the great men in history. A man who was such a oligarch-serving politician, that it would make Donald Trump jealous. A man who is so revered for some of the most do nothing bullshit in American history. Obviously I'm talking about Abraham Lincoln.

    Now I know at least half of you have already moved on assuming this to be bullshit, so for the half that are now morbidly curious how I'm going to vilify Dishonest Abe, just know that I'm going to say that a lot of what you have heard about the War of Northern Aggression is right. It's a bold-faced revisionist history lie to believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Before I even bring up the other reasons why that's untrue, just take it at face value. The South seceded. They didn't want to play by the North's rules. The North decides to attack them in the name of freeing slaves? Lmao. Sounds like the world police. No, the North attacked over resources. Cotton, in particular. The South was rich in resources. Mind you the original argument was over not allowing slavery to expand to new states. There was dissent among the people up north that slavery was wrong, but had it not been for the rich resources the South possessed, the two separate countries would have coexisted alongside each other and instead fought over the west.

    As for what he did for stopping slavery, he did jack all. The emancipation proclamation freed slaves in a country he did not control. The most celebrated do-nothing politics ever. And then after winning the war, he didn't even help see through to the goal of abolishing slavery in total. The 13th amendment is a fluff feel-good amendment that allowed for the ugliest still abused workaround today. The 13th amendment allows for slavery for those imprisoned.

    For those who need to understand what that means, the true history of police was to imprison and legally force into slavery the black man. It was a sick and awful compromise that a man with no foresight and terrible ability to lead allowed happen. It's crazy how long men were imprisoned and contracted out as labor. Lasted until WW2 in some states. Now we just have for-profit prisons and such that rely on forcing non-violent offenders into slavery. It's crazy how quick we pivoted from the civil rights movement era to allow blacks the same protections under the law as whites and not be forced into slavery for eating where the white man eats to the War on Drugs. Ronald Reagan's worst moves as presidency are often thought of as how he let the market crash in regards to oil and how he let the housing bubble begin (that W was blamed for because it finally popped under his watch). However, I posit that the War on Drugs is his worst as it was a truly malevolent endeavor. He was acting out of pure evil and there is really no disputing it.

    Throughout history labor has long been a valuable resource. Cheap / Free labor is a priceless commodity. Reagan's policies allowed for a way to increase incarceration and pump that slave labor up. The crack epidemic made it easy to vilify black people again and who cares right? Just black people being slaves for non violent offenses. It's only now that we see how many white people really do use marijuana and opioids that we think it may be a problem and that the war on drugs is bad. God just typing the name out so much sounds so stupid. We have somehow made "Drug" a bad thing. Just... wow. All in the name of making blacks slaves again. Whoops I mean making america great again.

    To bring this full circle, I agree that there are some merits to celebrate what the founding fathers did and how forward thinking they were. Totally totally totally agree. And with that I say that we should examine abe in this same light and recognize how non-forward thinking he was. I feel that we can all agree then that this defense does not work specifically for him. So what other defense do we have for keeping him up? Why he symbolizes the freeing of black people. Not exactly. He symbolizes a moment where society gave some rights to blacks but not really all that much. He is a monument to the white man for doing something nowhere near good enough for the black man. He is a reminder that doing less than the bare minimum can get you revered as one of the greatest politicians of all time. Abe symbolizes everything wrong with politics: do nothing bills, serving business interests over people interests, bare minimum care for the people, and worst of all: poor foresight into lawmaking and allowing for future abuse. There is no case to keep his statue up, and we should review every monument in the same harsh vein to see the true scrutiny of the opposition. You can have discourse about why he should stay up (and I welcome you to try; there should be discourse for all of these in this manner and we should examine the validity of the why that they were put up). I'm here to listen and learn, but I am confident in two things. That my argument is rock solid and that 95% of you have already stopped reading and typed out your rage response or ignored me.

  3. #63
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeardoMSU View Post
    I suppose you're right here, given that just about every successful military commander was probably a giant SOB, ex. Patton, Teddy, Eisenhower, MacAuthur, Grant, et al.

    To your other point about "who wins the war", there's a really good documentary from 2003 titled "The Fog of War", which focuses on Robert S. McNamara, and his service as Sec. of Defense. In the doc he talks about how if the US had ended up losing WWII we would've most likely been brought up on war crimes for our fire bombing of Japanese civilians, which we were doing in droves prior to dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    Dr. Grill was talking about this in his WWII classes at MSU back in the early 1990s. Said his first memory as a child was the firebombing of Dresden and his family running for their lives. He hated FDR, and did a whole day on US war crimes. That was an interesting class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    Not pro-Confederacy at all and war ended with right side winning but ... Lee and Forrest 2 different dudes. And if you think Lee was "evil" you know very little about Lee. Same with Stonewall.

    Should their statues on public property be moved to museum or battlefields ... absolutely. Forrest tho ... he was one mean as hell SOB and could be classified as evil. Mega hard-ass ... before & after the war.
    There are lots of mean SOBs that have served as military commanders in this country--Lee, Jackson, Sherman, etc. But only the former took up arms against his own brothers in order to fight to maintain slavery. That distinction matters, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bostondawg View Post
    There are lots of mean SOBs that have served as military commanders in this country--Lee, Jackson, Sherman, etc. But only the former took up arms against his own brothers in order to fight to maintain slavery. That distinction matters, sorry.
    As I said .. you know very little about Lee & Jackson or their motivations for fighting the war. Or their history of service to the US prior to the war. Just an example, Jackson's service in the Mexican War earned him 3 promotions in rank, the only person in that war to be promoted 3 times.

    Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.

  6. #66
    TheDynastyIsDead TUSK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.
    Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...
    "It is not courage to resist TUSK; It is courage to accept TUSK."

    No.


    Easy there buddy. Tusk is...well Tusk is Tusk. Tireddawg 12.20.17

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TUSK View Post
    Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...
    Some other facts that aren't as widely known. Lee's hero was Washington. He spent his life trying to emulate him. Lee's life thought process was primarily about duty and honor as he thought relative to Washington's standards.

    And neither Lee or Jackson were evil ... if Lee had been he would've laid Maryland (1862) and PA (1863) to waste much the way Sherman did. Lee didn't do that. And Lee ordered payment for everything (food/supplies) confiscated (Confederate script ... mostly worthless but the money of the Confederacy). None of the citizens or their farms were destroyed (except through destruction at the battles themselves).
    Last edited by dawgday166; 07-03-2020 at 12:37 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by TUSK View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    Context and perspective matters too. Washington and Jefferson were "traitors" and "rebels' at one time too.
    Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...
    It's not lost at all. Everyone knows they were traitors to Great Britain, but who cares?

    Being a "traitor" isn't inherently good or bad. Being a traitor to America is bad (from my American perspective), while being a traitor to another country on behalf of America is good.

    Is this concept really that hard?

  9. #69
    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    Some other facts that aren't as widely known. Lee's hero was Washington. He spent his life trying to emulate him. Lee's life thought process was primarily about duty and honor as he thought relative to Washington's standards.

    And neither Lee or Jackson were evil ... if Lee had been he would've laid Maryland (1862) and PA (1863) to waste much the way Sherman did. Lee didn't do that. And Lee ordered payment for everything (food/supplies) confiscated (Confederate script ... mostly worthless but the money of the Confederacy). None of the citizens or their farms were destroyed (except through destruction at the battles themselves).
    Apropos of Lee...I remember reading this back in '17 when it was first published.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeardoMSU View Post
    Apropos of Lee...I remember reading this back in '17 when it was first published.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/
    Whatever ... I never said that Lee didn't feel the white race was superior. He did. Talk about some revisionist history tho. I'd say the agenda for that article is the same as what we're seeing now ... all southerners (even Lee & Jackson) were horrible, beat their slaves practically to death, broke families up by selling them off, etc. etc. FWIW ... If Virginia doesn't secede Lee for sure and Jackson most likely fight for the Union.

    So we're becoming woke now that all southerners, each and every one that fought for the south, were horrible, despicable people. I'm beginning to get it **** And all those books I've read about it, and I've got a whole set written by participants in the war, are null & void with the new revelations we're all discovering now.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    Some "draw the line" needs to start happening IMO. I kinda get some irritated if someone messes with statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or messes with 4th of July holiday.

    And something I didn't know till the other day .. there are actually statues of Lenin in the US?? WTF??
    Multiple lines have continued to be crossed for a while especially this year though. The last line is upon our nation though.

  12. #72
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    Let's be real here. It's not about the meaning of statues. It's about toppling our government and way of life. They want a communist style of government. Most people have no clue what the statue is of.

  13. #73
    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.
    Churchill was awesome for the British in WWII, but the dude did participate in genocide in Africa, if I am not mistaken.
    Downvotes_Hype

  14. #74
    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyripms View Post
    Let's be real here. It's not about the meaning of statues. It's about toppling our government and way of life. They want a communist style of government. Most people have no clue what the statue is of.
    Well that is just stupid. Of course it is about 17n racist statues and correcting some bullshit that should have been corrected by white people 100 damn years ago. Definitely needed to be corrected at least 50 years ago.
    Downvotes_Hype

  15. #75
    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dannyripms View Post
    Let's be real here. It's not about the meaning of statues. It's about toppling our government and way of life. They want a communist style of government. Most people have no clue what the statue is of.
    Your ideas and way of life has been directly under attack for what...two months now? There are black folks that have had to deal with this shit there entire lives.
    Downvotes_Hype

  16. #76
    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R2Dawg View Post
    Multiple lines have continued to be crossed for a while especially this year though. The last line is upon our nation though.
    Good. Those lines need to be crossed.
    Downvotes_Hype

  17. #77
    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    Trump, the hill everyone is lining up to die on. What a 17n loser. I will give him this though, he sticks to his guns for a regular white citizen, unless it comes to actually doing something in their favor. You know an action. Tax break....yeah. temporary.
    Downvotes_Hype

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead View Post
    Well that is just stupid. Of course it is about 17n racist statues and correcting some bullshit that should have been corrected by white people 100 damn years ago. Definitely needed to be corrected at least 50 years ago.
    No ... I wish it were "stupid". If this were just about Confederate statues you might be right. But when it starts being Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant and even George Washington, then it's not just about statues.

  19. #79
    Senior Member Lord McBuckethead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TUSK View Post
    Yup, it amazes me how easily this fact gets lost...
    If we were a part of the uk now, I would agree.
    Washington and Jefferson also fought to establish a working relationship with the British pretty dang quickly after the war.
    Downvotes_Hype

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawgday166 View Post
    No ... I wish it were "stupid". If this were just about Confederate statues you might be right. But when it starts being Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant and even George Washington, then it's not just about statues.
    Even with Jefferson and Washington, your statement said toppling our way of life. That is just flippin stupid, sorry it is. Overreaction and a total misrepresentation of what is happening.
    Downvotes_Hype

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