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Thread: George Washington/Thomas Jefferson - 4th of July ... Drawing the line??

  1. #21
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leeshouldveflanked View Post
    What will they do to Stone Mountain? Dynamite or a yuge sander?
    Read an interesting article about this yesterday - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...derate-carving

    The author, Ryan Gravel, is the brains behind the Atlanta Beltline project. the TL/DNR is one idea is letting nature reclaim the mountainside. The carving has to be maintained, at a pretty big cost to fill cracks, clean, etc. He proposes that you could just stop maintenance - or even fill cracks with dirt and lichen and accelerate the process. The idea would be then leave it as an old relic, and include that as part of as total re-imagining of the park.
    Last edited by BrunswickDawg; 07-02-2020 at 02:10 PM.
    "After dealing with Ole Miss for over a year," he said, "I've learned to expect their leadership to do and say things that the leadership at other Division I schools would never consider doing and to justify their actions by reminding themselves that "We're Ole Miss.""
    - Tom Mars, Esq. 4.9.18

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    Senior Member msbulldog's Avatar
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    You know I believe all this crap is happening because it's right before the Presidential election and it is meant to embarrass Trump. They would have used any excuse to start this crap.
    Praise The Lord and Go Dawgs!!!

  3. #23
    General Public Political Hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msbulldog View Post
    You know I believe all this crap is happening because it's right before the Presidential election and it is meant to embarrass Trump. They would have used any excuse to start this crap.
    What's the TDS or Trump Syndrome or whatever it was that discusses people who just react to anything Trump???? Regardless, it's been operationalized and is beginning to be organized. He lit a fire that maybe needed to be lit.

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    Lots of great posts in this thread, but I just wanna spell it out crystal clear in case people aren't getting it.

    There's a big difference between putting up a monument to honor someone despite their evil traits (Washington, Jefferson, you, me, etc.) and putting up a monument to honor someone because of their evil traits (Lee, Forrest, etc.). Every single statue in the latter category needs to come down yesterday.

    And yes, there are some statues that are sorta in the middle. Some people (like Stephen D. Lee!) who did both horrendously evil things (traitor against our country, racist, fought to maintain slavery) and also did things which were positive (first pres. of MSU). In due time, as a nation we'll have to reckon with every single one of these gray cases on a case-by-case basis, considering the context in which we honor someone. Our country is gonna be just fine guys. We're having conversations we should have had 100 years ago.

  5. #25
    Senior Member shoeless joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bostondawg View Post
    Lots of great posts in this thread, but I just wanna spell it out crystal clear in case people aren't getting it.

    There's a big difference between putting up a monument to honor someone despite their evil traits (Washington, Jefferson, you, me, etc.) and putting up a monument to honor someone because of their evil traits (Lee, Forrest, etc.). Every single statue in the latter category needs to come down yesterday.

    And yes, there are some statues that are sorta in the middle. Some people (like Stephen D. Lee!) who did both horrendously evil things (traitor against our country, racist, fought to maintain slavery) and also did things which were positive (first pres. of MSU). In due time, as a nation we'll have to reckon with every single one of these gray cases on a case-by-case basis, considering the context in which we honor someone. Our country is gonna be just fine guys. We're having conversations we should have had 100 years ago.
    This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

    All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

    However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Commercecomet24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

    All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

    However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.
    That is so well put. This is a very complex issue and it's not just so cut and dried.

  7. #27
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoeless joe View Post
    This is where it gets kinda tricky for me...none of my ancestors owned a single slave. I do have ancestors that fought for the confederacy. Even one rather famous general on my paternal grandmothers side. I have no problem holding them in high esteem for their bravery and fighting for their homeland. I don’t view them as traitors.

    All that being the case...I feel good about the old flag coming down. It was the correct move. I don’t mind statues being moved, not destroyed. But I also think the book should be thrown at vandals and rioters.

    However, if I had only written one of those two thing above I’d be lumped in as having a certain thought process that may not have been accurate. Yes a lot of leftist think the same...a lot of conservatives do as well. But thought is much more complex and that is getting lost in all this mess.
    Most of us in the south are in that same boat. My 3x great grandfather raised a Calvary unit in Missouri, and end up a Captain under Quantrill. I'm pretty sure he owned slaves. After the war, he was a Jim Crow era legislator in Arkansas. I think part of the hard reckoning that we have to have with ourselves is to come to terms with respecting the memory of family while at the same time understanding what they were doing was wrong. You don't have to disown them, just recognize how that history impacts us today.

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    Senior Member starkvegasdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg View Post
    It wasn't about him being a slave owner - it was about things like this -


    And I'm not defending vandalism - but, Churchill is long known to be a very complex and controversial figure in England -
    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767
    Now be honest, you think 1/10 of 1% of the dumbasses out there tearing down statues have any 17ing clue who Churchill is...much less that he made that quote? All they see is a statue of a white guy and that's enough.

  9. #29
    Senior Member THE Bruce Dickinson's Avatar
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    George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did more for this country than any of these ANTIFA morons could do in 10 lifetimes. They are heroes and simply men of their time period. We can't judge men (and women) of the past like they are living in 2020. They had bigger issues to deal with in 1776- mostly fighting off the British so that they would not be hung in London.

    Tearing down the statues isn't about avenging past injustices. It's about removing the history, customs, and traditions of the United States of America. Muhammed owned slaves and was married to multiple young girls. Are we going to start tearing down mosques too? And just for reference I am not for tearing down anything, including mosques. But contrast examples like these really show you where the "protesters'" motivations really are aimed.

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    Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.

  11. #31
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg View Post
    Now be honest, you think 1/10 of 1% of the dumbasses out there tearing down statues have any 17ing clue who Churchill is...much less that he made that quote? All they see is a statue of a white guy and that's enough.
    I won't pretend to know because I wasn't there, but you also should presume that Brits don't know their own history, or that all protestors are a bunch of ignorant loons. Even intelligent people do dumb shit.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bostondawg View Post
    Lots of great posts in this thread, but I just wanna spell it out crystal clear in case people aren't getting it.

    There's a big difference between putting up a monument to honor someone despite their evil traits (Washington, Jefferson, you, me, etc.) and putting up a monument to honor someone because of their evil traits (Lee, Forrest, etc.). Every single statue in the latter category needs to come down yesterday.

    And yes, there are some statues that are sorta in the middle. Some people (like Stephen D. Lee!) who did both horrendously evil things (traitor against our country, racist, fought to maintain slavery) and also did things which were positive (first pres. of MSU). In due time, as a nation we'll have to reckon with every single one of these gray cases on a case-by-case basis, considering the context in which we honor someone. Our country is gonna be just fine guys. We're having conversations we should have had 100 years ago.
    Not pro-Confederacy at all and war ended with right side winning but ... Lee and Forrest 2 different dudes. And if you think Lee was "evil" you know very little about Lee. Same with Stonewall.

    Should their statues on public property be moved to museum or battlefields ... absolutely. Forrest tho ... he was one mean as hell SOB and could be classified as evil. Mega hard-ass ... before & after the war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msbulldog View Post
    You know I believe all this crap is happening because it's right before the Presidential election and it is meant to embarrass Trump. They would have used any excuse to start this crap.
    I think you may be onto something there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turkish View Post
    Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.
    Yes he did. And he did some pretty bad things to white folks (Congressmen & Chief Justice) and horrible things to Native Americans during the war that most people don't know about. Free speech didn't mean much around that time.

    Complicated era and there have been hundreds of throughout history. Same with before and after the war with Irish immigrants in factories or Chinese building the railroads. Some folks/races were abused at times ... not arguing that at all. Whites up north were not all fighting to end slavery cause ... then they'd compete for jobs. Different folks fought for different things. The central issue was slavery tho without a doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turkish View Post
    Ol Abe has some dandy quotes I bet you guys would love.
    Yes, but actions speak louder than words, do they not?

  16. #36
    TheDynastyIsDead TUSK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.
    I'll "one up you"... in Texico, a statue of Stevie Ray Vaughn was torn down...

    Now, that's some solid "Wokeness", right there....
    "It is not courage to resist TUSK; It is courage to accept TUSK."

    No.


    Easy there buddy. Tusk is...well Tusk is Tusk. Tireddawg 12.20.17

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    Sherman was a SOB...No matter who?s side he was on.

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    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leeshouldveflanked View Post
    Sherman was a SOB...No matter who?s side he was on.
    No, not really.

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    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TUSK View Post
    I'll "one up you"... in Texico, a statue of Stevie Ray Vaughn was torn down...

    Now, that's some solid "Wokeness", right there....
    If they were smart, they'd erect a statue of Michael Bolton in it's place...**


  20. #40
    TheDynastyIsDead TUSK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeardoMSU View Post
    If they were smart, they'd erect a statue of Michael Bolton in it's place...**

    That was solid, despite your commie lovin' 'tude.... I can't believe they chose Bolton over Che...****

    Oh, remind me to kill you....*
    "It is not courage to resist TUSK; It is courage to accept TUSK."

    No.


    Easy there buddy. Tusk is...well Tusk is Tusk. Tireddawg 12.20.17

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