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Thread: KSU football team refusing to practice or play

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by maroonmania View Post
    Yes, basically first amendment free speech is just about the fact that there can't be laws on the books that prevent someone's right to express their opinion (including even a disgusting one like this K-State student). However, there are non-legal consequences of someone speaking their mind every day. Colleges set their own admission standards as to who they will accept and set their own student conduct policies for their own campus. Even if someone gets kicked out of college for vulgar speech, it doesn't mean their first amendment right was violated as long as they aren't legally prosecuted. Even if this guy was kicked out of K-State nobody is stopping him from exercising his free speech rights. He can keep on saying what he wants to say but he just won't be saying it as a K-State student.
    Exactly

  2. #22
    Senior Member Jack Lambert's Avatar
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    They will play football. They are not this stupid. It is a bluff.

  3. #23
    Senior Member msstate7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maroonmania View Post
    True, but most colleges have to try and uphold some kind of conduct standards for their students. Most comics don't have any standards.
    That's fine. Enforce it evenly though. Professors say much worse than this all the time with no consequence.

  4. #24
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    Some of you need a refresher...

    https://www.aclu.org/other/speech-campus

  5. #25
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
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    I don't know what KSU's legal rights are on this one, and I am generally a supporter of 'You can do what you want and then you face whatever consequences come.' But in this case it would just be because a mob got angry enough. And I don't like the idea of one group of people singling out another and demanding something happen to him and have it done. Just not the way I want society to operate.

  6. #26
    General Public Political Hack's Avatar
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    Seems to me both parties are exhibiting their free speech. University is just caught in the middle. Be interesting to see what they do.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg View Post
    So free speech has been 17ed for a while then you're saying?
    No, you just don't understand how free speech actually works.

    The first amendment protects you from government retaliation.

    The first amendment does not force everyone else to cowtow to what you say and how you say it.

    The first amendment does not protect you from others expressing their criticism.

    The first amendment allows Kansas State to say they do not want to be represented or associated with something.

    It would be a violation of first amendment rights if they FORCED Kansas State to keep this person.

    You can't view free speech as this free reign for one person to be an utter ****. Everyone has free speech. You can't impede on others free speech (in this case someone disassociating with someone over difference of opinion) just because someone else has free speech. That would be denying someone else's free speech rights. Your rights end where someone else's begins.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Really Clark?'s Avatar
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    KSU is a public university, in the sense of free speech they have to be very careful to not overstep constitutional rights as a recognized entity of the government. This is had been settled by the Supreme Court for decades. This goes in every direction of political and moral speech. Free speech is one of foundations of the liberal arts of universities and the universities have wanted that protection as much as private individuals, groups, etc.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by chef dixon View Post
    What is free speech supposed to protect you from? I mean he ain't getting arrested. Give me a constitution lesson because you are clearly much more of a bonafide patriot than I am. KSU doesn't want to associate with him seems like within their right to me.

    Also no one is forcing you and your buddy to get on social media. Play at your own risk, especially if y'all think it's the downfall of society.
    Free speech protects you from the government (not a private entity, it can suppress your speech all it wants), including a state university, suppressing your protected speech or from retaliating against you for engaging in protected speech (expulsion would be a form of retaliation).

    So, the question here is whether the students speech is protected. As a general rule, all speech, including hate speech, is protected unless it fits into one of the unprotected categories. Those unprotected categories are obscenity, defamation, fraud, incitement, fighting words, true threat, child porn.

    I don't think a cruel, stupid comment about George Floyd being drug free for a month fits into one of those categories. Elementary and high schools have more leeway to punish speech that creates a "substantial disruption," but that isn't applicable in college settings, where free speech and the exchange of ideas is fostered. Below is a link to an article that discusses this issue.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...-racism-campus

  10. #30
    Senior Member Really Clark?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by confucius say View Post
    Free speech protects you from the government (not a private entity, it can suppress your speech all it wants), including a state university, suppressing your protected speech or from retaliating against you for engaging in protected speech (expulsion would be a form of retaliation).

    So, the question here is whether the students speech is protected. As a general rule, all speech, including hate speech, is protected unless it fits into one of the unprotected categories. Those unprotected categories are obscenity, defamation, fraud, incitement, fighting words, true threat, child porn.

    I don't think a cruel, stupid comment about George Floyd being drug free for a month fits into one of those categories. Elementary and high schools have more leeway to punish speech that creates a "substantial disruption," but that isn't applicable in college settings, where free speech and the exchange of ideas is fostered. Below is a link to an article that discusses this issue.

    https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...-racism-campus
    Obscenity is protected at universities, Supreme Court rules on that in the 70’s as well.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dantheman4248 View Post
    It would be a violation of first amendment rights if they FORCED Kansas State to keep this person.
    Are you truly this stupid?

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg View Post
    It's supposed to protect you from getting kicked out of school for making a bad joke.
    Is it really?

    I'm pretty sure you can't say whatever you want and be free from repercussions. He is not going to jail for his statements, but my guess is that KSU has a policy that gives them a great deal of leeway to expel students based on their conduct. They could argue that he was attempting to incite a riot or protest. I'm not sure I would agree, but that is what I would argue if I was KSU and they were kicking him out of school.

    They don't have to expel him, but the football team doesn't have to play or practice either - I mean, freedom of expression and all. So if KSU wants to keep the kid in school, that seems perfectly fine. Its also perfectly fine for the football players to decide to not play.

    Everyone can make their own decision. I genuinely don't see the problem.
    Last edited by HancockCountyDog; 06-28-2020 at 10:31 AM.

  13. #33
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
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    The irony of situations like this is that if no one brought his tweet to public attention, a few people that saw it would laugh and the others who saw it would think he's a terrible person and avoid him. And that would be it.

    By bringing it to attention and then coming after him for it, they have made it very public. And sure, many think he's a terrible person, but they've also created a sense of martyrdom and brought many more to his side than would have been there otherwise.

    So by 'standing for what is right,' they have ensured that more people are actually against them.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Really Clark?'s Avatar
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    Guys, this issue has been settled in courts already, all the way to the Supreme Court. A public university CANNOT infringe on his first amendment rights, and when argued at the Supreme Court level over students, it has been over them being expelled multiple times. And we are talking about speech from both extremes of the political divide. It’s been shot down by the Supreme Court time and time again.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Social media has a good chance of being the fall of civilization
    I'm afraid you're right and it's already begun. It doesn't even have to be true for people to post it as true. If it's on the internet or social media it must be true. Outer limits did an episode on this very thing happening back in the 90s. Group think over rules independent thought whether true or not. The seed just has to be planted for it fo start to grow.

  16. #36
    Senior Member starkvegasdawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog View Post
    Is it really?

    I'm pretty sure you can't say whatever you want and be free from repercussions. He is not going to jail for his statements, but my guess is that KSU has a policy that gives them a great deal of leeway to expel students based on their conduct. They could argue that he was attempting to incite a riot or protest. I'm not sure I would agree, but that is what I would argue if I was KSU and they were kicking him out of school.

    They don't have to expel him, but the football team doesn't have to play or practice either - I mean, freedom of expression and all. So if KSU wants to keep the kid in school, that seems perfectly fine. Its also perfectly fine for the football players to decide to not play.

    Everyone can make their own decision. I genuinely don't see the problem.
    A school has no control over what students say unless they are representing the school in an official capacity. Any being a student does not fall under that. A campus with the enrollment of a major university is going to have students of all walks of life and beliefs. Many of them will have beliefs well out of the mainstream on both extremes. Their comments on personal social media pages do no harm to the university. They are not a reflection of the university so they should have the right to say what they wish so long as it isn't a threat to a particular person or group. Now, if they're on a university email system or social media platform then completely different. If somebody said kill all gays on a msstate.edu email then I could see some sort of action being warranted.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Gutter Cobreh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex54 View Post
    He said "Congrats to George Floyd for being one month drug free"

    I heard edgier jokes in the 4th Grade but wokeness is the new religion and Floyd a Saint so the modern Inquisition must come down hard on the heretic.
    I'm sorry COVID cut your 4th grade year short...***

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chef dixon View Post
    He said "congratulations to George Floyd for being 1 month drug free." Kid is the founder of America First group on their campus. He's deserves whatever comes his way in my opinion.
    Was the comment made on the campus group's social media account or the private account of an individual? In terms of legal argument/precedent, is this distinction relevant?

  19. #39
    Zone Blocking Specialist coachnorm's Avatar
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmd6CHah7Wg


    This is why the racist punk needs to be properly dealt with. Kent State University not Kansas State University? The youth of America are itching for a fight against conservative America. It is always wise to understand if you are outnumbered, out gunned, and out motivated. Kansas State has to pick its poison.

  20. #40
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    The irony is this kid is essentially saying "there are consequences for your behavior" in regards to George Floyd

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