Dan Wolken

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

OAN said "Black Lives Matter" is a Farce and has doubled down on that as the years have gone on.

Plain and simple it's not ok to be racist. Sure it's your constitutionally protected right to be racist if you want. The government can't arrest you for that. But it's everyone else's right to hate you for your stupidity and no longer support you. That's democracy. That's them exercising their freedom of speech.

If you find yourself on the opposite end of cancel culture, you need to 1. reevaluate your opinion. Gundy clearly did. He asked why and had a good conversation and has come forward with a meh apology, but an apology nonetheless. 2. If you don't want to do 1, then understand what the freedom of speech means. It doesn't protect you from someone else saying they don't support you. That is their freedom of speech. If you are mad at people using "cancel culture" to eliminate "wrongthink" then you are literally mad you live in America and are on the losing end of democracy.

People have the right to speak. People have the right to say that what others say is stupid. People have the freedom of speech to withdraw their support based on whatever they feel like. Getting mad at that means you are literally against the first amendment. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. You're free to leave.

Side note OAN is actually considered more trustworthy than Fox News on the media bias chart. That statement is not an endorsement of OAN btw.

I am very aware of how free speech works. The difference is the group think. If a celebrity says "I believe abortion is murder" or "I think marriage is only between a man and a woman" they better watch out. However, if you say something along the lines of "I think women should have the right to post birth abortions" you will be revered as woke. The media acts as an attack dog for the left.

[dantheman4248]

I am very aware of how free speech works. The difference is the group think. If a celebrity says "I believe abortion is murder" or "I think marriage is only between a man and a woman" they better watch out. However, if you say something along the lines of "I think women should have the right to post birth abortions" you will be revered as woke. The media acts as an attack dog for the left.

This is just plain hilarity and wrong on how people view abortion and where the cancel culture comes from. The media acting as an attack dog for the left is hilarity. Fox News gets the biggest cut of the pie behind locals.

But let's view your two ridiculous scenarios for what they are. Starting with the obvious, "marriage is between a man and a woman." Why is this controversial? Well acting in favor of that statement is a first amendment violation. If you support that statement and act on it then you are spitting on freedom of religion. Remember, your rights end where another's begins. You can't impose your religion to where another's can't begin. That's how that works. And don't think this means that your pastor has to marry them. That's the catch that they are missing. They can't impose their religion on you. So shit ain't bothering you. They're treated equally under law and can get their marriage certificate same as any 2 other human beings. If you prevent that then you are against freedom and you should move to Russia.

As for abortion, the touchiest of topics. Both sides are shit at the argument in my opinion. Pro-choice for not knowing what constitutes a human and deciding arbitrarily based on days. Pro-life for being disingenuous and acting like they actually care about lives. As soon as that baby is going plopped out, they don't give a damn anymore. It simply comes across as a means to control women with those disingenuous motives. The ones who are sexist about it get cancelled. Which are still few and far between. Your post-birth abortion straw man is just pure comedy. Doesn't exist and is an attack to make an argument you don't agree with sound stupid.

But again the issue is simple. If you are militant on either side of that controversial issue, you have the ability to vote with your wallet. If someone else takes the other side of the issue, you have your freedom to no longer support them in any capacity and say why. You have freedom of speech of course. But there is nothing to protect you from the consequence of others hearing your freely said malarkey and causing monetary consequence for you. You do not have the freedom of monetary consequence. That would impose others rights to freedom of speech.

Being scared of that boils down to that you're scared you'll lose money for shit opinions. That's what happens in a democratic economy. If you don't like democracy or freedom then go somewhere else. (This isn't a specific shot at you Bruce. It's directed at idiots who believe their bastion of freedom is perfect and can't understand why anyone would question the holes in our society.)

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

This is just plain hilarity and wrong on how people view abortion and where the cancel culture comes from. The media acting as an attack dog for the left is hilarity. Fox News gets the biggest cut of the pie behind locals.

But let's view your two ridiculous scenarios for what they are. Starting with the obvious, "marriage is between a man and a woman." Why is this controversial? Well acting in favor of that statement is a first amendment violation. If you support that statement and act on it then you are spitting on freedom of religion. Remember, your rights end where another's begins. You can't impose your religion to where another's can't begin. That's how that works. And don't think this means that your pastor has to marry them. That's the catch that they are missing. They can't impose their religion on you. So shit ain't bothering you. They're treated equally under law and can get their marriage certificate same as any 2 other human beings. If you prevent that then you are against freedom and you should move to Russia.

As for abortion, the touchiest of topics. Both sides are shit at the argument in my opinion. Pro-choice for not knowing what constitutes a human and deciding arbitrarily based on days. Pro-life for being disingenuous and acting like they actually care about lives. As soon as that baby is going plopped out, they don't give a damn anymore. It simply comes across as a means to control women with those disingenuous motives. The ones who are sexist about it get cancelled. Which are still few and far between. Your post-birth abortion straw man is just pure comedy. Doesn't exist and is an attack to make an argument you don't agree with sound stupid.

But again the issue is simple. If you are militant on either side of that controversial issue, you have the ability to vote with your wallet. If someone else takes the other side of the issue, you have your freedom to no longer support them in any capacity and say why. You have freedom of speech of course. But there is nothing to protect you from the consequence of others hearing your freely said malarkey and causing monetary consequence for you. You do not have the freedom of monetary consequence. That would impose others rights to freedom of speech.

Being scared of that boils down to that you're scared you'll lose money for shit opinions. That's what happens in a democratic economy. If you don't like democracy or freedom then go somewhere else. (This isn't a specific shot at you Bruce. It's directed at idiots who believe their bastion of freedom is perfect and can't understand why anyone would question the holes in our society.)

After I posted the abortion argument, I somewhat regretted it because I really wasn't intending that post to get into a pissing match over abortion.

It doesn't change the fact that my argument is correct, and for the examples you cited your take is not based in fact.

Yes you cannot discriminate based on a person's sexual preference, but having the opinion that marriage is between a man and a woman isn't illegal. If it was every politician pre 2005 would be in prison. Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama included. The point is when the Chick-Fil-A founder expressed this opinion ( when he was specifically asked the gotcha question) was completely demonized for his opinion. The early days of the Twitter mob also tried to cancel him and his company.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to make this about abortion but you are wrong about post birth abortion support being non existent. See Virginia governor's comments last year.

What I am trying to emphasize is the amazing double standard that the media has based on their opinions as "journalists". The beloved governor of Virginia Ralph Northam and our incredibly woke northern neighbor's prime minister literally have pictures and videos of them in blackface circulating. Do you think Tate Reeves would still be the governor by by the end of the week if a similar photo of him was discovered? That's the difference.

[Johnson85]

OAN said "Black Lives Matter" is a Farce and has doubled down on that as the years have gone on.

Plain and simple it's not ok to be racist. Sure it's your constitutionally protected right to be racist if you want. The government can't arrest you for that. But it's everyone else's right to hate you for your stupidity and no longer support you. That's democracy. That's them exercising their freedom of speech.

This is so feeble minded it's incredible. You can criticize an organization focused on race issues and not be racist just like you can criticize the Southern Baptist Convention and not be bigoted towards Christians.

If you find yourself on the opposite end of cancel culture, you need to 1. reevaluate your opinion. Gundy clearly did. He asked why and had a good conversation and has come forward with a meh apology, but an apology nonetheless. 2. If you don't want to do 1, then understand what the freedom of speech means. It doesn't protect you from someone else saying they don't support you. That is their freedom of speech. If you are mad at people using "cancel culture" to eliminate "wrongthink" then you are literally mad you live in America and are on the losing end of democracy.
People have the right to speak. People have the right to say that what others say is stupid. People have the freedom of speech to withdraw their support based on whatever they feel like. Getting mad at that means you are literally against the first amendment. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. You're free to leave.

Side note OAN is actually considered more trustworthy than Fox News on the media bias chart. That statement is not an endorsement of OAN btw.

There is freedom of speech as a legal concept and freedom of speech as a cultural value. It is not "freedom of speech" to try to drive somebody from the public sphere and/or ensure that they lose their job and are generally unwelcome in "polite" society. It may be legally protected, but it's antithetical to freedom of speech. Freedom of speech would be meeting them in the market place of ideas and convincing other people, if not them, that their ideas are wrongheaded. Trying to shortcut the argument by getting them excluded from the public square is not "freedom of speech".

Also, it doesn't have much to do with democracy, but to the extent it does, it's also inconsistent with democracy. Democracy more or less depends on not trying to treat the minority on any particular issue as unworthy of being in polite society. If the consequences of losing an election are that the minority no longer enjoys the benefits of civil society, then that makes every election an existential issue for them and increases the chances that power will not change hands peacefully.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

This is so feeble minded it's incredible. You can criticize an organization focused on race issues and not be racist just like you can criticize the Southern Baptist Convention and not be bigoted towards Christians.

Exactly, you can believe that black lives matter, while still being critical of the organization that goes by the name "Black Lives Matter".

I can like southern Mississippi (the region) and not like Southern Mississippi (the college).

[dantheman4248]

You people are so out to find bad guys to hate. ANTIFA and BLM are not "organizations", they are movements. You know what you sound like right now? People who "agree with civil rights but don't agree with their protests and the Civil Rights Organization."

You keep trying to boogeyman a movement as some dark organization with some nefarious leader. Effectively saying that BLM is a farce is akin to saying Civil Rights is a farce. Plain and simple.

You have the right to say whatever you want and the government can't arrest you. That's free speech. Everyone else has the right to criticize, withdraw support, call you an asshole, and tell you to shut up. That's their free speech. Again, "if you don't like it, leave."

[dawgday166]

You people are so out to find bad guys to hate. ANTIFA and BLM are not "organizations", they are movements. You know what you sound like right now? People who "agree with civil rights but don't agree with their protests and the Civil Rights Organization."

You keep trying to boogeyman a movement as some dark organization with some nefarious leader. Effectively saying that BLM is a farce is akin to saying Civil Rights is a farce. Plain and simple.

You have the right to say whatever you want and the government can't arrest you. That's free speech. Everyone else has the right to criticize, withdraw support, call you an asshole, and tell you to shut up. That's their free speech. Again, "if you don't like it, leave."

So I defended Kapernick at the time he protested cause, like you say that's free speech. Didn't think that what happened as a result with his career and all should've happened. He has the right to speak his mind. And he wasn't being violent or destroying anything.

However, it sounds like you're now defending those that disagreed with him and ostracized him, including the NFL. No??

Works both ways ... don't it?

OAN is just a more conservative news organization near as I can tell so far. Only known about if for a week or so but learned some things on there that you don't hear most places.

Like when Dr. Alveda King, the niece of MLK was on there saying Trump has done more for Black American than Obama did. And she also said the MLK's "dream" is alive moreso today because of what Trump has done to help the Black Community. Especially with criminal justice reform, permanently funding historically black colleges, opportunity zones, and school choice. This was all a shocker to me as well.

Not saying OAN is 100% accurate but not sure there is any news org that is. Just saying you see some things on there that you'll never see on CNN.

[Sundawg1974]

You people are so out to find bad guys to hate. ANTIFA and BLM are not "organizations", they are movements. You know what you sound like right now? People who "agree with civil rights but don't agree with their protests and the Civil Rights Organization."

You keep trying to boogeyman a movement as some dark organization with some nefarious leader. Effectively saying that BLM is a farce is akin to saying Civil Rights is a farce. Plain and simple.

You have the right to say whatever you want and the government can't arrest you. That's free speech. Everyone else has the right to criticize, withdraw support, call you an asshole, and tell you to shut up. That's their free speech. Again, "if you don't like it, leave."

Odd that BLM website says they are an ?organization?, but you keep being the condescending you.

[dantheman4248]

So I defended Kapernick at the time he protested cause, like you say that's free speech. Didn't think that what happened as a result with his career and all should've happened. He has the right to speak his mind. And he wasn't being violent or destroying anything.

However, it sounds like you're now defending those that disagreed with him and ostracized him, including the NFL. No??

Works both ways ... don't it?

OAN is just a more conservative news organization near as I can tell so far. Only known about if for a week or so but learned some things on there that you don't hear most places.

Like when Dr. Alveda King, the niece of MLK was on there saying Trump has done more for Black American than Obama did. And she also said the MLK's "dream" is alive moreso today because of what Trump has done to help the Black Community. Especially with criminal justice reform, permanently funding historically black colleges, opportunity zones, and school choice. This was all a shocker to me as well.

Not saying OAN is 100% accurate but not sure there is any news org that is. Just saying you see some things on there that you'll never see on CNN.

It's sad to see you do in the real world what you made fun of me for in the sports world. You literally are searching until you found something that made you feel comfortable and fit your narrative.

White people love to prop up one random ass person of color and say "Look, they don't think it's bad. What's the deal?" Literally ignore 99% of them that are telling you there is a problem to agree with the one that makes you feel comfortable and cozy and optimistic.

Also hilarious you mention Kaepernick. That IS exactly what happened to him. He was "cancelled" for having an opinion that upset viewers. You're so close to the point. That none of these people cried when it happened to him. It's only when it happens to those they like that there's a problem. Why do you think I put quotes around "if you don't like it, leave." ?

[dantheman4248]

Odd that BLM website says they are an ?organization?, but you keep being the condescending you.

"An organization known simply as "Black Lives Matter" exists as a decentralized network with over 30 chapters worldwide, while a larger Black Lives Matter movement exists consisting of various separate like-minded organizations such as Dream Defenders and Assata's Daughters."

If you really think that they are calling the organization a farce while in the same breath acknowledging the movement is ok then you are willfully being ignorant. Congrats on making it to 2020 and still having the inability to change your opinion when presented with new evidence.

BLM is a movement. Anyone who attacks that moniker at this point is quite simply a bigot. You're totally allowed to be a bigot. You are allowed to exist in "polite" society. The only thing that you aren't allowed to do is force the rest of society to treat you in a certain manner. Society can treat you how they want. Society determines that you've acted like a bigot, then you are no longer allowed to profit off of them. You lose your job? Oh well. Shouldn't have been racist.

To the overall point of the thread, the coach went and listened to his players. He listened to their concerns and he made a formal apology. Some may take it as teleprompter and not honest. I take it as progress. It's up to him to show actions going forward that aren't tone deaf.

There's a team that is predominantly black saying they won't support anyone who supports a network that says people of their skin color wanting their lives to matter is a farce. Your response is to seek out people who disagree with that however you can and cry about how your marginalized and can't support something racist without consequences. Get the **** over yourself.

[dawgday166]

It's sad to see you do in the real world what you made fun of me for in the sports world. You literally are searching until you found something that made you feel comfortable and fit your narrative.

White people love to prop up one random ass person of color and say "Look, they don't think it's bad. What's the deal?" Literally ignore 99% of them that are telling you there is a problem to agree with the one that makes you feel comfortable and cozy and optimistic.

Also hilarious you mention Kaepernick. That IS exactly what happened to him. He was "cancelled" for having an opinion that upset viewers. You're so close to the point. That none of these people cried when it happened to him. It's only when it happens to those they like that there's a problem. Why do you think I put quotes around "if you don't like it, leave." ?

I said I did defend Kapernick. I can't influence millions of viewers or the NFL either.

As to "searching" I'm searching for something that is along the lines of what's real. Hard to tell that is. So you don't think MLK's niece knows anything about race relations or what Trump has done for black people?

I guess you know more about that than she does?

[BeardoMSU]

I said I did defend Kapernick. I can't influence millions of viewers or the NFL either.

As to "searching" I'm searching for something that is along the lines of what's real. Hard to tell that is. So you don't think MLK's niece knows anything about race relations or what Trump has done for black people?

I guess you know more about that than she does?

She, and her opinion are absolutely valid, and one I would consider (along with others). Would you say the same about Ronald Reagan's son?

[dantheman4248]

I said I did defend Kapernick. I can't influence millions of viewers or the NFL either.

As to "searching" I'm searching for something that is along the lines of what's real. Hard to tell that is. So you don't think MLK's niece knows anything about race relations or what Trump has done for black people?

I guess you know more about that than she does?

Did I say you didn't?

As for searching what's real. You know what that is? Seeing the shit for yourself. Go be a socially distant observer if not a supporter of the protests. You missed the initial stockpile of tear gas quickly being depleted, so now you won't really see much looting as the police have stopped provoking for the large part.

And again you are bringing up 1 persons worldview. Go listen to the thousands of others that share a different perspective. Again it sounds like you're searching for the person who makes you feel comfortable and tells you what you want to hear rather than looking at the obvious truth that exists all around.

[dawgday166]

She, and her opinion are absolutely valid, and one I would consider (along with others). Would you say the same about Ronald Reagan's son?

Maybe and probably so. Listened to him a few times a long time ago. What is he saying these days?

When it comes to race relations tho ... she's lived it so I'd probably lean in her direction moreso. Don't you think that's the smart option of those two?

Of course now dano ... he's the smartest so he probably knows more than she does. I probably just need to quit trying to figure anything out and listen to dano. Save myself a lot of time then.

I've also talked to a close black friend who's like a brother to me ... seriously. We talk about anything. I brought it up and said "Dude, you mind if I ask you about all this? He said "No problem". Then I said "Be straight up with me now." And he was.

I think ole Dano would be surprised at what he said for most part. My friend and I both tho are glad more awareness of cops getting away with brutality or murder needs to happen and there should be severe consequences for that crap.

[dawgday166]

Did I say you didn't?

As for searching what's real. You know what that is? Seeing the shit for yourself. Go be a socially distant observer if not a supporter of the protests. You missed the initial stockpile of tear gas quickly being depleted, so now you won't really see much looting as the police have stopped provoking for the large part.

And again you are bringing up 1 persons worldview. Go listen to the thousands of others that share a different perspective. Again it sounds like you're searching for the person who makes you feel comfortable and tells you what you want to hear rather than looking at the obvious truth that exists all around.

So you went and protested and saw all this then? Where'd you protest at?

One person's worldview huh? I would imagine she's seen more in a month of her early life than you've seen in your entire life relative to race relations. And she wasn't the only black person on there. There was another younger black lady who I believe was the head of the King Center who said the same things about Trump.

But ... I will defer to your immense experience and knowledge.

[dantheman4248]

So you went and protested and saw all this then? Where'd you protest at?

One person's worldview huh? I would imagine she's seen more in a month of her early life than you've seen in your entire life relative to race relations. And she wasn't the only black person on there. There was another younger black lady who I believe was the head of the King Center who said the same things about Trump.

But ... I will defer to your immense experience and knowledge.

I've been to Minneapolis and to my own city's protests. It's funny that since our curfew was lifted that there has been less "destruction and looting".

As for you reading that my experience trumps hers. I have no idea how you contorted your brain to think that's what I said. I literally said go listen to the THOUSANDS of OTHERS. For every lucky person of color who "has never experienced racism", there are 1000 who have. For every one supporting Trump and thinking he's doing any good for race relations and the communities there are 1000 who disagree. That's not me. The streets are talking. Go listen.

[dawgday166]

I've been to Minneapolis and to my own city's protests. It's funny that since our curfew was lifted that there has been less "destruction and looting".

As for you reading that my experience trumps hers. I have no idea how you contorted your brain to think that's what I said. I literally said go listen to the THOUSANDS of OTHERS. For every lucky person of color who "has never experienced racism", there are 1000 who have. For every one supporting Trump and thinking he's doing any good for race relations and the communities there are 1000 who disagree. That's not me. The streets are talking. Go listen.

So you were glad the curfew was lifted then? Sorta like freedom that is ... which I agree with. But I thought you believe Trump should lock down the country under martial law because of Covid?

So the discussion was on free speech ... which I agree with both ways. Here's some more free speech for you. Be sure to watch the whole thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYTof5ipmZw

[Cowbell]

Just stopped in because I could hear screaming from one of the other threads.... LOL

[Dawgfan77]

I've been to Minneapolis and to my own city's protests. It's funny that since our curfew was lifted that there has been less "destruction and looting".

As for you reading that my experience trumps hers. I have no idea how you contorted your brain to think that's what I said. I literally said go listen to the THOUSANDS of OTHERS. For every lucky person of color who "has never experienced racism", there are 1000 who have. For every one supporting Trump and thinking he's doing any good for race relations and the communities there are 1000 who disagree. That's not me. The streets are talking. Go listen.

I'm gonna call Bull shit on you protesting especially in Minneapolis

[dantheman4248]

I'm gonna call Bull shit on you protesting especially in Minneapolis

The fact that you vilify me to where you can't even fathom the possibility that I don't live in Mississippi and actually live closer to Minneapolis than I did to Starkville growing up (and I grew up in Mississippi) shows that it's not even about understanding the other side of view.

You just want to be right and to have others submit and be beneath you. You'll contort reality until you believe you're there. You're participating in bad faith. Black lives matter. Not matter more than you. Just matter. How that is still controversial is because you're someone who will contort that message into something else. It's almost like you're afraid if you don't have power that someone else will and you're afraid of being treated how those not in power are. Sickening, selfish, and sad.