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Thread: MSU People Need to Educate this Guy

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    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    MSU People Need to Educate this Guy

    Another mis-understanding of post 1990 Mississippi State.

    This is what we're fighting.

    No mention of very few home games vs LSU for the better half of a century.

    No mention of play Alabama every year when other schools did.

    No mention of virtually no conference home games for the better half of a century.

    Again, it appears that no matter how much we win, there still appears be a bad narrative.

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    It sounds like he has it right to me. Everything he said is factually correct except POSSIBLY with MSU being the hardest place to win in the West.

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    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    It sounds like he has it right to me. Everything he said is factually correct except POSSIBLY with MSU being the hardest place to win in the West.
    Yeah, it just comes with such little understanding of the context of MSU's history.

    MSU is absolutely not the hardest place to win in the SEC West. The JUCO & local talent pool are something that Arkansas can't compete with & Ole Miss has trouble tapping into.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Yeah, it just comes with such little understanding of the context of MSU's history.

    MSU is absolutely not the hardest place to win in the SEC West. The JUCO & local talent pool are something that Arkansas can't compete with & Ole Miss has trouble tapping into.
    The last 100 years say it is. The last 10 years say it's not. The question is were those 10 years because of Mullen like this guy thinks or is it because of MSU advancing? Leach will go a long way in answering these questions.

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    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew View Post
    The last 100 years say it is. The last 10 years say it's not. The question is were those 10 years because of Mullen like this guy thinks or is it because of MSU advancing? Leach will go a long way in answering these questions.
    That Croom hire is a real pimple on us that ruined what should be close to 30 years of sustained winning by now.

    While the Sherrill era proved we could win, the Croom era wiped away any national remembrance of what Sherrill did.

    While your right, I think it's pretty easy to reason your way to MSU not being the hardest place to win the SEC West, with the MS JUCO being the #1 reason.
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    Senior Member gtowndawg's Avatar
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    When did the twelve game schedule come into play? For most of Jackie's tenure (if not all) he had one less game that would would have been an automatic win against a cupcake like Mullen did. Mullen was great for sure, but he had 9 or 10 wins extra simply from a 12 game schedule.

    Also, he talks about Mullen taking us to 8 straight bowls but but let's be honest the St. Pete bowl we didn't deserve. Plus, a coach we fired took us to two in a row.

    Like others have said looking at the last 100 years he's absolutely right. Looking at the last 25 he's not close to being right. Arkansas and Ole Miss are absolutely harder to win at if you look at any data point for that time period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    That Croom hire is a real pimple on us that ruined what should be close to 30 years of sustained winning by now.

    While the Sherrill era proved we could win, the Croom era wiped away any national remembrance of what Sherrill did.

    While your right, I think it's pretty easy to reason your way to MSU not being the hardest place to win the SEC West, with the MS JUCO being the #1 reason.
    While you can reason your way there, we are still, from the outside hampered by sharing a state with a known cheater, our close location to Alabama, and our history. That Ole Miss consistently has shown to flagrantly break the rules to win, makes MSU a harder place to win.

    Arkansas has the entire state and a history of being able to recruit Texas.

    The entry of Mizzou and A&M is what is relegated ARK to the lower tier in the SEC. It killed thier out of state recruiting base into Texas, Missouri, and Oklahoma.

    But like Ifyouonlyknew said, that's recent history...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtowndawg View Post
    When did the twelve game schedule come into play? For most of Jackie's tenure (if not all) he had one less game that would would have been an automatic win against a cupcake like Mullen did. Mullen was great for sure, but he had 9 or 10 wins extra simply from a 12 game schedule.

    Also, he talks about Mullen taking us to 8 straight bowls but but let's be honest the St. Pete bowl we didn't deserve. Plus, a coach we fired took us to two in a row.

    Like others have said looking at the last 100 years he's absolutely right. Looking at the last 25 he's not close to being right. Arkansas and Ole Miss are absolutely harder to win at if you look at any data point for that time period.
    Mullen would have failed to make a bowl game in 2011, 2013, and 2016 had he played an 11 game schedule like Sherrill did and had bowl games not been so readily available for anyone who got to 6 wins. That’s nearly half of his time in Starkville That he would not have made a bowl game if you add the 2009 year. He probably would have been fired instead of getting the Florida job had he been in Sherrill’s situation. Sherrill was the better coach due to doing what he did without all of the SEC money and extra cupcake game per year.
    Last edited by Jarius; 05-28-2020 at 10:31 AM.

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    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtowndawg View Post
    When did the twelve game schedule come into play? For most of Jackie's tenure (if not all) he had one less game that would would have been an automatic win against a cupcake like Mullen did. Mullen was great for sure, but he had 9 or 10 wins extra simply from a 12 game schedule.

    Also, he talks about Mullen taking us to 8 straight bowls but but let's be honest the St. Pete bowl we didn't deserve. Plus, a coach we fired took us to two in a row.

    Like others have said looking at the last 100 years he's absolutely right. Looking at the last 25 he's not close to being right. Arkansas and Ole Miss are absolutely harder to win at if you look at any data point for that time period.
    Good post.

    I think this makes the Leach tenure all the more important.

    MSU needs to prove that someone other than Mullen can really win here.

    If MSU maintains winning over 3 different coaches, it should become fairly clear that MSU is a good job
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    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarius View Post
    Mullen would have failed to make a bowl game in 2011, 2013, and 2016 had he played an 11 game schedule like Sherrill did and had bowl games not been so readily available for anyone who got to 6 wins.. Sherrill was the better coach due to doing what he did without all of the SEC money and extra cupcake game per year.
    Sherrill coached in a much different SEC. It's a tough comparison
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtowndawg View Post
    When did the twelve game schedule come into play? For most of Jackie's tenure (if not all) he had one less game that would would have been an automatic win against a cupcake like Mullen did. Mullen was great for sure, but he had 9 or 10 wins extra simply from a 12 game schedule.

    Also, he talks about Mullen taking us to 8 straight bowls but but let's be honest the St. Pete bowl we didn't deserve. Plus, a coach we fired took us to two in a row.

    Like others have said looking at the last 100 years he's absolutely right. Looking at the last 25 he's not close to being right. Arkansas and Ole Miss are absolutely harder to win at if you look at any data point for that time period.
    Not to mention, it's way easier to get to a bowl than even in Jackie's time

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    Senior Member Jack Lambert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg View Post
    It sounds like he has it right to me. Everything he said is factually correct except POSSIBLY with MSU being the hardest place to win in the West.
    they always leave out that Miss State in the past 10 years have been to more bowl games than, Ole Miss, Arkansas and Auburn.

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    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarius View Post
    Mullen would have failed to make a bowl game in 2011, 2013, and 2016 had he played an 11 game schedule like Sherrill did and had bowl games not been so readily available for anyone who got to 6 wins. That?s nearly half of his time in Starkville That he would not have made a bowl game if you add the 2009 year. He probably would have been fired instead of getting the Florida job had he been in Sherrill?s situation. Sherrill was the better coach due to doing what he did without all of the SEC money and extra cupcake game per year.
    The number of available bowls and the 12th cupcake game really benefited Mullen. In 1970, the 11 game schedule was added. If you go back to 1970 and add a 12th cupcake game and assume a win, and apply 6 wins making you bowl eligible you get this:
    - 3 additional seasons of 9+ wins (plus additional 10 wins - '74, '76, '80)
    - 7 additional "bowl eligible" seasons ('77, '82, '85, '86, '89, '90, '96)
    - 4 seasons we were already "bowl eligible" but did not go to a bowl ('75, '76, '78, '97)
    - 6 additional regular seasons of .500+

    That would be a huge perception changer outside of the Croom Error, giving us 5 Bowls in the '70s (instead of 1); 6 in the '80s (instead of 2); and 8 in the 90s (instead of 5).

    This should not detract from the job Mullen did - he did great. But, it does show the benefits the era gave him compared to others.
    "After dealing with Ole Miss for over a year," he said, "I've learned to expect their leadership to do and say things that the leadership at other Division I schools would never consider doing and to justify their actions by reminding themselves that "We're Ole Miss.""
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    Senior Member QuadrupleOption's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    Another mis-understanding of post 1990 Mississippi State.

    This is what we're fighting.

    No mention of very few home games vs LSU for the better half of a century.

    No mention of play Alabama every year when other schools did.

    No mention of virtually no conference home games for the better half of a century.

    Again, it appears that no matter how much we win, there still appears be a bad narrative.
    None of those things changes any of the points that he's making in his tweets. Sherrill was our most successful coach since McKeen, and he went .500 (and had to get two Bama forfeits to get there). Mullen has had more on-field success than any other coach in the prior 60 years at MSU.

    All those other items you mention don't change that. Our administration allowed it to happen because they didn't give a shit about football. That's on MSU, not the world. And for someone who routinely castigates others for being all "po' ol' MSU", you sure are making a lot of excuses for our shitty past. We sucked, with a few bright spots (Murray Warmath, 2 seasons, left for Minnesota and won a NC, Darrell Royal, 2 seasons, left for Texas, won a NC, Bob Tyler, 6 seasons, thought he could beat the NCAA, Jackie Sherrill, 10 seasons, .500 record) until Mullen came along.

    Like it or not, MSU historically is the worst job in the SEC, and it will take another 10 years of winning seasons (and maybe an actual SEC title) to change that perception. Regardless, the perception of MSU HAS changed over the last decade. We aren't a laughingstock any more - we're just another average school in a vicious, soul-crushing conference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarius View Post
    Mullen would have failed to make a bowl game in 2011, 2013, and 2016 had he played an 11 game schedule like Sherrill did and had bowl games not been so readily available for anyone who got to 6 wins. That’s nearly half of his time in Starkville That he would not have made a bowl game if you add the 2009 year. He probably would have been fired instead of getting the Florida job had he been in Sherrill’s situation. Sherrill was the better coach due to doing what he did without all of the SEC money and extra cupcake game per year.
    Jackie, coaching in a much worse sec west, also put up four 3 win seasons and a 2 win season (I think). And left us on probation on the way out the door and with the program in a freaking mess. Even if dan would have barely missed a bowl game in 11,13, and 16, he never bombed like Jackie and ran a much better program internally than Jackie.

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    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuadrupleOption View Post
    None of those things changes any of the points that he's making in his tweets. Sherrill was our most successful coach since McKeen, and he went .500 (and had to get two Bama forfeits to get there). Mullen has had more on-field success than any other coach in the prior 60 years at MSU.

    All those other items you mention don't change that. Our administration allowed it to happen because they didn't give a shit about football. That's on MSU, not the world. And for someone who routinely castigates others for being all "po' ol' MSU", you sure are making a lot of excuses for our shitty past. We sucked, with a few bright spots (Murray Warmath, 2 seasons, left for Minnesota and won a NC, Darrell Royal, 2 seasons, left for Texas, won a NC, Bob Tyler, 6 seasons, thought he could beat the NCAA, Jackie Sherrill, 10 seasons, .500 record) until Mullen came along.

    Like it or not, MSU historically is the worst job in the SEC, and it will take another 10 years of winning seasons (and maybe an actual SEC title) to change that perception. Regardless, the perception of MSU HAS changed over the last decade. We aren't a laughingstock any more - we're just another average school in a vicious, soul-crushing conference.
    We were Po Mittittippi Tate, but we aren't anymore.

    Weeding out that mentality is what I fight against, not that there wasn't a good reason that it started.
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    Senior Member gtowndawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarius View Post
    Mullen would have failed to make a bowl game in 2011, 2013, and 2016 had he played an 11 game schedule like Sherrill did and had bowl games not been so readily available for anyone who got to 6 wins. That’s nearly half of his time in Starkville That he would not have made a bowl game if you add the 2009 year. He probably would have been fired instead of getting the Florida job had he been in Sherrill’s situation. Sherrill was the better coach due to doing what he did without all of the SEC money and extra cupcake game per year.
    Yep, valid point. In 1997 (Jackie) we went 7-4 and did not go to a bowl as I recall.

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    Senior Member gtowndawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by confucius say View Post
    Jackie, coaching in a much worse sec west, also put up four 3 win seasons and a 2 win season (I think). And left us on probation on the way out the door and with the program in a freaking mess. Even if dan would have barely missed a bowl game in 11,13, and 16, he never bombed like Jackie and ran a much better program internally than Jackie.
    The highs for Jackie were higher than Mullen, but to your point the lows were much lower than Mullen.

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    Senior Member QuadrupleOption's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg View Post
    We were Po Mittittippi Tate, but we aren't anymore.

    Weeding out that mentality is what I fight against, not that there wasn't a good reason that it started.
    I agree - we aren't Po Mittittippi Tate but we also ain't Bama. For a visual analogy, Bama's on the mountain top. 30 years ago we were down in the valley. Now, we're probably 1/3rd of the way to the mountain top but the guys who pay attention to the Bamas of the world don't keep up. They think we're still in the valley. Keep winning, keep going to bowls, keep beating teams you should beat and eventually you'll start to get that recognition (and we are).

    We still have a ways to go to be on the mountain top, but we're getting there. The fact the JoMo was let go after 2 seasons of making bowls tells me that our donors and AD aren't putting up with stuff like they used to.

    I don't have a problem with your passion, but I do think you need to take a step back and see where we are in relation to where we were. Always strive for improvement but you have to understand you don't go from nothing to championships overnight. You have build it the right way, and it's a long-term plan and process. Shortcuts are for UM, not us. And they never work out in the end.

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    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuadrupleOption View Post
    I agree - we aren't Po Mittittippi Tate but we also ain't Bama. For a visual analogy, Bama's on the mountain top. 30 years ago we were down in the valley. Now, we're probably 1/3rd of the way to the mountain top but the guys who pay attention to the Bamas of the world don't keep up. They think we're still in the valley. Keep winning, keep going to bowls, keep beating teams you should beat and eventually you'll start to get that recognition (and we are).

    We still have a ways to go to be on the mountain top, but we're getting there. The fact the JoMo was let go after 2 seasons of making bowls tells me that our donors and AD aren't putting up with stuff like they used to.

    I don't have a problem with your passion, but I do think you need to take a step back and see where we are in relation to where we were. Always strive for improvement but you have to understand you don't go from nothing to championships overnight. You have build it the right way, and it's a long-term plan and process. Shortcuts are for UM, not us. And they never work out in the end.
    Great post.

    It's not that I don't recognize where we are, it's that I believe we have a good portion of fans that think like someone in the Valley rather than seeing what we could be.
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