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Thread: Battle of the sexes: USA Soccer Edition

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    Senior Member THE Bruce Dickinson's Avatar
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    Battle of the sexes: USA Soccer Edition

    Since all sports are cancelled for the foreseeable future, I figured this would be a lively conversation for a message board pretty low on content.

    The US women's national soccer team is suing the United States Soccer Federation for equal pay as the men's team. Below is the argument that the defense team is arguing:

    "US Soccer lawyers arguing that, under the Equal Pay Act, "The job of a [men?s national team player] carries more responsibility within US Soccer than the job of a [women's national team] player."

    There were also lines of questioning to some current USWNT players.

    "Do you think that the team could be competitive against the senior men's national team?" a US Soccer lawyer asked Lloyd, according to documents filed last month.

    "I'm not sure," Lloyd said. "Shall we fight it out to see who wins and then we get paid more"


    Could get pretty interesting. I also think this was kind of a dumb argument for the US Soccer lawyers to make. Even though it is true, they probably should have stuck to a more revenue/profit based argument rather than pretty much stating that the women aren't as talented as the men.

    Thoughts?

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    Senior Member gtowndawg's Avatar
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    If the senior men's team really gave it 100% effort they would absolutely murder the women's team. Anyone that thinks otherwise is crazy.

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    pay the ladies double until the men can do better than the 1930 world cup team

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    Quote Originally Posted by THE Bruce Dickinson View Post
    Since all sports are cancelled for the foreseeable future, I figured this would be a lively conversation for a message board pretty low on content.

    The US women's national soccer team is suing the United States Soccer Federation for equal pay as the men's team. Below is the argument that the defense team is arguing:

    "US Soccer lawyers arguing that, under the Equal Pay Act, "The job of a [men?s national team player] carries more responsibility within US Soccer than the job of a [women's national team] player."

    There were also lines of questioning to some current USWNT players.

    "Do you think that the team could be competitive against the senior men's national team?" a US Soccer lawyer asked Lloyd, according to documents filed last month.

    "I'm not sure," Lloyd said. "Shall we fight it out to see who wins and then we get paid more"


    Could get pretty interesting. I also think this was kind of a dumb argument for the US Soccer lawyers to make. Even though it is true, they probably should have stuck to a more revenue/profit based argument rather than pretty much stating that the women aren't as talented as the men.

    Thoughts?
    This one is an easy argument. Pay whomever what they deserve. If women's soccer brings in more revenue then they should get that % if men do then they should. Same for NBA and WNBA which is what they do. Beauty of free market economy. Pay for who produces.

    Men and women equality applies to some things but not others. Equal rights but not equal results. Here is a big secret - men and women are different.

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    Senior Member THE Bruce Dickinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtowndawg View Post
    If the senior men's team really gave it 100% effort they would absolutely murder the women's team. Anyone that thinks otherwise is crazy.
    If they actually ended up playing I think the men would win something like 8-0 or 9-0. I think they men would put it away quick and then just sit on the lead in the second half. I?d still love to see it

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    The lawyers are totally screwing up the debate.

    It's not about competition and who works hardest. It's about who is more profitable and better entertainment. Plain and simple.

    Thaaaaaaaat's capitalism

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    Senior Member BulldogDX55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dantheman4248 View Post
    The lawyers are totally screwing up the debate.

    It's not about competition and who works hardest. It's about who is more profitable and better entertainment. Plain and simple.

    Thaaaaaaaat's capitalism
    And the thing is, all reports indicate that the women bring in both more ratings and revenue. There's literally no reason why they should be getting paid less.
    WHY IS EVERYONE YELLING?!?

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    Delete - it’s an economics question not about who is better in the sport
    Last edited by The Federalist Engineer; 03-13-2020 at 08:36 PM.

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    Senior Member thf24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dantheman4248 View Post
    The lawyers are totally screwing up the debate.

    It's not about competition and who works hardest. It's about who is more profitable and better entertainment. Plain and simple.

    Thaaaaaaaat's capitalism
    And rightfully so. I'm all for the women getting what they deserve, but if they want to make as much as the men they need to figure out how to sell as much product (which, some people don't seem to understand, includes club play in addition to national).

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    Senior Member thf24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulldogDX55 View Post
    And the thing is, all reports indicate that the women bring in both more ratings and revenue.
    For strictly national team play, yes. For all of US pro soccer, not even close in favor of the men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulldogDX55 View Post
    And the thing is, all reports indicate that the women bring in both more ratings and revenue. There's literally no reason why they should be getting paid less.
    Press (X) to doubt.


    The women only compete in one paying event every four years. The men compete in at least 3 that I can think of off the top of my head. The women don't generate revenue. Men don't watch it near as much as they watch other men compete. Do we not remember Secretary of Defense Tim Howard? Way more Americans watched that than this past world cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dantheman4248 View Post
    Press (X) to doubt.


    The women only compete in one paying event every four years. The men compete in at least 3 that I can think of off the top of my head. The women don't generate revenue. Men don't watch it near as much as they watch other men compete. Do we not remember Secretary of Defense Tim Howard? Way more Americans watched that than this past world cup.
    That is actually correct looking at a recent four year period. Basically, looking at a four year period, in a period in which the women win the world cup and the men don't even qualify, the women actually do outpace the men in revenue. Of course if the men qualify for the world cup, that alone exceeds the revenue the women could pull in in a four year period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R2Dawg View Post
    This one is an easy argument. Pay whomever what they deserve. If women's soccer brings in more revenue then they should get that % if men do then they should. Same for NBA and WNBA which is what they do. Beauty of free market economy. Pay for who produces.

    Men and women equality applies to some things but not others. Equal rights but not equal results. Here is a big secret - men and women are different.
    It's actually not quite that simple, although it's close. First, there is the issue of how the pay is structured. You get paid more for taking on more risk. Playing on the men's team is basically a side gig for the players. THey make their money as pros and they can afford to take on more variable pay. THey don't need benefits like health insurance or paternity leave. They don't need large minimum guarantees.

    Second, there is the issue of what to include in compensation. THe Federation claims (and I assume they are telling the truth) that they subsidize the women teams in the US, including the salaries they pay the players that end up on the woman's team. To the extent that money can't be tracked directly to the players' compensation, it may be a fair argument that the federation's money to promote the women's game shouldn't count against their compensation (although on the other hand, if they didn't subsidize the women's teams, they might have trouble having a professional league to play in in the US).

    The Federation should just figure out the percentage of revenue that men get and offer the women the same thing, structured the same way (which I think they basically did already except they offered women a higher percentage of the revenue they generate). Then just make them pay for benefits using a third party provider. IF they want maternity, let them buy short term disability through a voluntary policy. If they want insurance, offer a plan without an employer match.

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    Senior Member BulldogDX55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thf24 View Post
    For strictly national team play, yes. For all of US pro soccer, not even close in favor of the men.
    Quote Originally Posted by dantheman4248 View Post
    Press (X) to doubt.


    The women only compete in one paying event every four years. The men compete in at least 3 that I can think of off the top of my head. The women don't generate revenue. Men don't watch it near as much as they watch other men compete. Do we not remember Secretary of Defense Tim Howard? Way more Americans watched that than this past world cup.
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/us-w...than-mens.html

    "That’s according to audited financial statements from the U.S. Soccer Federation (USSF) obtained by The Wall Street Journal. In 2016, women’s games generated $1.9 million more in revenue than men’s games. From 2016 to 2018, women’s games generated approximately $50.8 million in revenue, compared with $49.9 million for men’s games."

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson85 View Post
    That is actually correct looking at a recent four year period. Basically, looking at a four year period, in a period in which the women win the world cup and the men don't even qualify, the women actually do outpace the men in revenue. Of course if the men qualify for the world cup, that alone exceeds the revenue the women could pull in in a four year period.
    Sure, but that still means the generated more, and for that reason they deserve more.
    WHY IS EVERYONE YELLING?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulldogDX55 View Post
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/19/us-w...than-mens.html

    "That’s according to audited financial statements from the U.S. Soccer Federation (USSF) obtained by The Wall Street Journal. In 2016, women’s games generated $1.9 million more in revenue than men’s games. From 2016 to 2018, women’s games generated approximately $50.8 million in revenue, compared with $49.9 million for men’s games."



    Sure, but that still means the generated more, and for that reason they deserve more.

    I don't doubt that's true. The men failed to make the last World Cup and the women won theirs. It's not totally surprising that the women out earned the men. I believe this is the first time in history that has ever happened. The part about the argument that doesn't compute is that the women are given a larger percentage of the revenue they generate domestically than the men. The men just make a ton more money because there is exponentially more money that FIFA distributes, not the USSF. Also, the women don't have health insurance through US Soccer because they failed to get it through their collective bargaining agreement.

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    Unless the US soccer federation lawyers totally bungle the case this is a pretty easy one to do logically and still offer the women a fair deal. I’m not putting it past then though

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    Quote Originally Posted by R2Dawg View Post
    This one is an easy argument. Pay whomever what they deserve. If women's soccer brings in more revenue then they should get that % if men do then they should. Same for NBA and WNBA which is what they do. Beauty of free market economy. Pay for who produces.

    Men and women equality applies to some things but not others. Equal rights but not equal results. Here is a big secret - men and women are different.
    Exactly.

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    Senior Member missouridawg's Avatar
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    I think the men’s lawyers are arguing the wrong point. The men make more because they generate more revenue. The idea that the men carry more weight is completely subjective. The revenues, jersey sales, and TV stats are not disputable.

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    Women's soccer is basically popular in 3-4 countries every four years during a WC year. Nobody cares otherwise.

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    Senior Member Ari Gold's Avatar
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    Maybe if they start letting transgenders play with the women things will change.. **

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