Gettysburg

[EdDawg]

I figured I would start a thread here since there were a few of us that hijacked a sports topic on the main board.

I posted in that thread that Ranger Matt Atkinson from GettysburgNPS has some great videos on their YouTube page. They are really worth the watch if you are interested in it.

I really enjoy talking and discussing this time period of our history.

[parabrave]

Watch Ted Turners Gettysburg. Probably one of the best produced war/history movies ever with great acting and pretty dam right on historical facts..

[EdDawg]

Seen it and Gods and Generals which was really drawn out at times.

I wish Gettysburg the movie would have focused just a little on the night engagement at cemetery hill. It is truly amazing seeing how wide open that field of fire was the union had from atop the hill which made anything but a night battle suicide. This is definitely one of the areas of the battlefield that doesn't get the attention it deserves.

[parabrave]

The book Gods and Generals was really drawn out. But it covered the Early Battles very well.

[Liverpooldawg]

If you have never been to Gettysburg, go. If you walk out of the woods at the Virginia Memorial , look at the objective, and still think R.E. Lee is an elite general.....I can't help you. I thought he was elite, as Southern Mythology says, till I did it myself. Walk the ground, no matter which ground you go to. Staying in your car is......useless.

[Bully13]

If you have never been to Gettysburg, go. If you walk out of the woods at the Virginia Memorial , look at the objective, and still think R.E. Lee is an elite general.....I can't help you. I thought he was elite, as Southern Mythology says, till I did it myself. Walk the ground, no matter which ground you go to. Staying in your car is......useless.

There is a reason Lee was Lincoln's first choice prior to hostilities beginning. There is a reason Lee graduated 1st in his class at west point. There is a reason Lee won battles outnumbered.

[parabrave]

Yep but he caught a case of the Dumbass ordering Picketts charge. Any brand new 2nd LT would have seen what was about to happen.

[Bully13]

Yep but he caught a case of the Dumbass ordering Picketts charge. Any brand new 2nd LT would have seen what was about to happen.

not disagreeing with that. just talking about his complete resume.

[parabrave]

not disagreeing with that. just talking about his complete resume.

Read Gods and Generals. It's pretty indepth of the Pre-war lives of Lee, Jackson and Longstreet.

[patdyeisstilldrunk]

There is a reason Lee was Lincoln's first choice prior to hostilities beginning. There is a reason Lee graduated 1st in his class at west point. There is a reason Lee won battles outnumbered.

Lee didn't graduate first in his class at WP. Many historians believe that Lee suffered a minor stroke prior to (or at the beginning of) the Gettysburg Campaign. If true, his judgment would have likely been clouded and he never would have ordered the Charge.

[patdyeisstilldrunk]

See my reply below - many historians believe Lee suffered a stroke in the days / weeks leading up to Gettysburg. This would be an explanation, at least, for such a foolhardy decision.

[Bully13]

Lee didn't graduate first in his class at WP. Many historians believe that Lee suffered a minor stroke prior to (or at the beginning of) the Gettysburg Campaign. If true, his judgment would have likely been clouded and he never would have ordered the Charge.

My Bad and thanks for the post stilldrunk. He finished 2ND at WP. Not too shabby though, no? Never heard about the stroke. I do know he died from a flu or pneumonia or something of the sort soon after the war.

https://www.history.com/topics/ameri...r/robert-e-lee

[patdyeisstilldrunk]

First...second, what's the difference, right? He was the only graduate who did not have a single demerit during his tenure at WP. That's pretty amazing, in itself. I don't have the research at hand, currently, but one of my students did research that came to the conclusion that a stroke was likely. He had some good research to back up his conclusion. Interestingly, there's research out there that presents the theory that JEB Stuart suffered a nervous breakdown in the months prior to Gettysburg. This would explain his uncharacteristic behavior before and during the battle.

[Bully13]

First...second, what's the difference, right? He was the only graduate who did not have a single demerit during his tenure at WP. That's pretty amazing, in itself. I don't have the research at hand, currently, but one of my students did research that came to the conclusion that a stroke was likely. He had some good research to back up his conclusion. Interestingly, there's research out there that presents the theory that JEB Stuart suffered a nervous breakdown in the months prior to Gettysburg. This would explain his uncharacteristic behavior before and during the battle.

DAMN. Wow. Gracias Senior.

[Jack Lambert]

Things to ponder and discuss.

1. Lee was sick. Rumor was he had to many pancakes and had diarrhea. That was really serious in mid 19th century also medical records show he possibly had had a Heart Attack a few week earlier. Lee was forcing the issue thinking the north would pursue peace if he could win the battle. Longstreet tried to change Lee's mind. They should have move back to Washington after the first day. The other Corp Commanders were ass kisser. What Lee needed was another level head to talk some sense in him. Jackson would have been that guy.

2. I think Jeb Stuart is criticize too much for being late. First of all the capture wagons he brought into the battle which slowed him down were needed to get Lee's wounded out of Gettysburg. The supplies were really needed as well. Also the idea that Lee's army was blinded because Stuart wasn't there is just bull shit. The historians at the time was trying to lay blame for the loss on someone else. What people don't rallies is Lee had another Cavalry Command under John D. Imboden. It was independent from Stuart. The problem was Lee did not trust them. He kept him in the rear with the gear protecting thier supply train.

Here is a good PDF file about the day by day whereabouts of Stuart and the Union Cav during the Gettysburg campaign and it is safe to open.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a195002.pdf

[EdDawg]

Things to ponder and discuss.

1. Lee was sick. Rumor was he had to many pancakes and had diarrhea. That was really serious in mid 19th century also medical records show he possibly had had a Heart Attack a few week earlier. Lee was forcing the issue thinking the north would pursue peace if he could win the battle. Longstreet tried to change Lee's mind. They should have move back to Washington after the first day. The other Corp Commanders were ass kisser. What Lee needed was another level head to talk some sense in him. Jackson would have been that guy.

2. I think Jeb Stuart is criticize too much for being late. First of all the capture wagons he brought into the battle which slowed him down were needed to get Lee's wounded out of Gettysburg. The supplies were really needed as well. Also the idea that Lee's army was blinded because Stuart wasn't there is just bull shit. The historians at the time was trying to lay blame for the loss on someone else. What people don't rallies is Lee had another Cavalry Command under John D. Imboden. It was independent from Stuart. The problem was Lee did not trust them. He kept him in the rear with the gear protecting thier supply train.

Here is a good PDF file about the day by day whereabouts of Stuart and the Union Cav during the Gettysburg campaign and it is safe to open.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a195002.pdf

1. I don't think Lee could have disengaged after day 1. The union still had a sizable force near the Pipe Creek Line which was very defensible terrain. Lee was just an aggressive commander in a time that was very costly to launch assaults on fixed positions. I know Longstreet was a professional soldier and would always try to hold duty above anything else, but his countermarch is such a head scratcher. Why would make his whole column move like a snake to turn on a narrow road on day 2. Even if he was able to launch his assault just 1 hour earlier the outcome may be completely different.

2. Stuart, while a great Calvary commander, did let personal grudges get in his way. He gave Lee irregular Calvary brigades, Imboden, but left other more qualified brigades to guard the Shenandoah. Now Lee should have overruled this, but that's not the type of commander he was.

I think Lee got a little too anxious by 63, he thought he needed to accelerate the Union's war weariness a little more. I think he could have stayed on the defensive while launching raids and keeping his army in tact. This would have eroded almost all union war support by the 64 elections.

[Liverpooldawg]

Lee got drawn into battle at Gettysburg because he had no idea what he was facing. That was Stuart's fault. He failed in his primary function which was to screen and scout. Lee failed on both the second and third day by ordering assaults against extremely strong geographical positions that were perfect for the defender. None of those assaults should have been ordered. Longstreet had the right idea. That idea would have been very hard to implement though. Lee got outgeneraled all the way around in that Campaign by Meade. Had Lee been able to get between Meade and Washington, Meade would have been forced to attack. Meade, whatever his faults, didn't allow that to happen. That's what really won the battle of Gettysburg. Lee's one chance to win the tactical battle at Gettysburg evaporated when Euell failed to secure Culp's Hill on the first day.

[EdDawg]

Lee got drawn into battle at Gettysburg because he had no idea what he was facing. That was Stuart's fault. He failed in his primary function which was to screen and scout. Lee failed on both the second and third day by ordering assaults against extremely strong geographical positions that were perfect for the defender. None of those assaults should have been ordered. Longstreet had the right idea. That idea would have been very hard to implement though. Lee got outgeneraled all the way around in that Campaign by Meade. Had Lee been able to get between Meade and Washington, Meade would have been forced to attack. Meade, whatever his faults, didn't allow that to happen. That's what really won the battle of Gettysburg. Lee's one chance to win the tactical battle at Gettysburg evaporated when Euell failed to secure Culp's Hill on the first day.

The third day was definitely on Lee, but the attack on the 2nd day was suppose to take place in the morning, but didn't take place until around 3 in the afternoon. If the attack takes place even at noon there are no union troops present at Little Round Top. The only brigade of Hood and McLaw's divisions that wouldn't have been present earlier was Law's brigade.

Sickle's Corps would have still been crushed and Hancock would not have been able to pull enough troops to throw into the battle until after Hood occupied Little Round Top. And dislodging the Texas brigade from Little Round Top would have been a tough task.

On the third day, I think Lee felt like he had to do something or his losses would have been for nothing, but instead he just dug his hole deeper.

[EdDawg]

Liverpool, when you went what did you think of the engagement at Oak Hill/Ridge?

It just amazes me how inept Rodes was there. His division should have crushed the union wing quickly and may have even led to the seizing of Cemetary Hill that afternoon.

I haven't read much on Rodes, but to have a subordinate brigade commander supposedly drunk, and another sitting back and not leading, doesn't bode well for Rodes' leadership.

[Liverpooldawg]

Liverpool, when you went what did you think of the engagement at Oak Hill/Ridge?

It just amazes me how inept Rodes was there. His division should have crushed the union wing quickly and may have even led to the seizing of Cemetary Hill that afternoon.

I haven't read much on Rodes, but to have a subordinate brigade commander supposedly drunk, and another sitting back and not leading, doesn't bode well for Rodes' leadership.

That battle was just a series of bungling all the way around in the Confederate side. That was certainly one of them.