State of MSU at the Midway Point of SEC play

[maroonmania]

I don’t see much to argue against. This was the year for Lemon to do a 180 and right the ship. Looks like we made a 90 instead.

My question to all on this board is do you see us EVER getting back to Omaha with Lemonis running the program? I certainly don't and that is the reason I'm ready to move on even if we squeak into a regional somewhere. With Lemonis, and given the hitters we lose after this year ends, I really don't see how we will be as good next season as we are this season. Does anyone see our program improving next year over this year? It's pretty obvious Lemonis can manage a team but he can't build a team.

[StarkVegasSteve]

My question to all on this board is do you see us EVER getting back to Omaha with Lemonis running the program? I certainly don't and that is the reason I'm ready to move on even if we squeak into a regional somewhere. With Lemonis, and given the hitters we lose after this year ends, I really don't see how we will be as good next season as we are this season. Does anyone see our program improving next year over this year? It's pretty obvious Lemonis can manage a team but he can't build a team.

I do not unless he lucks into an Ethan Small and a Landon Sims and they are on the same team. Offensively he recruits well enough to get there. He just cannot recruit on the mound and develop a bullpen with backend pieces. Now we did get Stephen this year that has turned it on as of late but we have nothing behind him. It is why I was vehemently against making Dohm a starter. We should have kept him at the back end and let Schuelke be the SU guy.

[Randolph Dupree]

My question to all on this board is do you see us EVER getting back to Omaha with Lemonis running the program? I certainly don't and that is the reason I'm ready to move on even if we squeak into a regional somewhere. With Lemonis, and given the hitters we lose after this year ends, I really don't see how we will be as good next season as we are this season. Does anyone see our program improving next year over this year? It's pretty obvious Lemonis can manage a team but he can't build a team.

This is my sentiment also. Great breakdown by Todd on our issues. After the natty people talked about Lemonis "pressing all the right buttons" but in reality it looks like he's just throwing random shit against the wall and seeing what sticks. Looks like he got lucky once but the law of averages is catching up. In the SEC all the players are good so you have to have players and coaching. I think we lack coaching AND evaluation. Players can manipulate the system and inflate their PG rankings, you recruit the rankings and you get ole miss (that's what they do)...and that's what we've gotten.

Also, I've been a big supporter of GoTro over the years but it's time to move on. Not sure if it's complacency or what; I liken it to if I wrote an essay and proofed it three times, I could still hand it to someone else to proof read and they'd find stupid errors. Sometimes you're just too close to it to see the flaws.

[Goldendawg]

Many of you know baseball at all levels much better than me (Starting 7th Grade Second Baseman in '68, but many games attended since!). My question, How in this world are we now 2 1/2 years past a NC and have so many holes in the lineup, questionable Bullpen with no closer, no 3rd baseman, questionable 2nd baseman, backup catcher that has thrown no one out, little hitting in order 6-9, no DH, no bench, playing guys left on left batting or hitting 0.00 or others less than the Mendosa line? Heck you have to add the batting averages of a couple of the past weekend's disaster to even reach the Mendoza line. Looks to me the wheels are still off, except maybe a couple back on since 14th followed by 13th in the league. Also appears to me the league is top heavy, ala MBB in the NCAA tourney.

[Todd4State]

This is my sentiment also. Great breakdown by Todd on our issues. After the natty people talked about Lemonis "pressing all the right buttons" but in reality it looks like he's just throwing random shit against the wall and seeing what sticks. Looks like he got lucky once but the law of averages is catching up. In the SEC all the players are good so you have to have players and coaching. I think we lack coaching AND evaluation. Players can manipulate the system and inflate their PG rankings, you recruit the rankings and you get ole miss (that's what they do)...and that's what we've gotten.

Also, I've been a big supporter of GoTro over the years but it's time to move on. Not sure if it's complacency or what; I liken it to if I wrote an essay and proofed it three times, I could still hand it to someone else to proof read and they'd find stupid errors. Sometimes you're just too close to it to see the flaws.

The reality is there is no baseball coach that could screw up Landon Sims. He was absolutely unicorn dominant. How many times in 2021 did he come in for Parker Stinnett who walked the bases loaded with no outs and was able to minimize damage to a run or less because people could barely make contact?

The question about recruiting comes down to this- is PG, MLB scouts, MLB.com, and etc. all wrong about our players or is it poor coaching and development? Given the success of some of our players after they left here I'm going with the development being the issue. SEC/MLB caliber players just figuring it out in the minors isn't as normal as some MSU fans try to make it seem. It's hard to say that guys like Dakota Jordan, Hunter Hines, Mershon, and etc. haven't panned out. I think I can make a strong argument that they also aren't reaching their ceiling either.

Many of you know baseball at all levels much better than me (Starting 7th Grade Second Baseman in '68, but many games attended since!). My question, How in this world are we now 2 1/2 years past a NC and have so many holes in the lineup, questionable Bullpen with no closer, no 3rd baseman, questionable 2nd baseman, backup catcher that has thrown no one out, little hitting in order 6-9, no DH, no bench, playing guys left on left batting or hitting 0.00 or others less than the Mendosa line? Heck you have to add the batting averages of a couple of the past weekend's disaster to even reach the Mendoza line. Looks to me the wheels are still off, except maybe a couple back on since 14th followed by 13th in the league. Also appears to me the league is top heavy, ala MBB in the NCAA tourney.

I think the holes comes down to Cannizarro getting lazy with recruiting because of his distractions followed up by MSU hiring a then unknown head coach in Lemonis. Foxhall was also lazy at recruiting and his reputation was starting to become really bad. Once things settled and we had success we started to recruit better. And so after the CWS NC Lemonis decided to kind of cut corners a bit by bringing in a ton of JUCO and portal transfers to try to avoid having bad seasons and it didn't work out because his pitching coach was horrendous.

If you break down our most used relief pitchers they're pretty much all from the portal or JUCO. Hardin, Tyler Davis, Auger, Schuelke, with Siary being the exception. As a whole on the season they haven't been bad but at the same time most of them have been inconsistent and no one has really stepped up at all. Although again- I'm not sure why Hardin hasn't really got a chance. I think they may have given up on Gavin Black too soon too.

Closers are hard to find because it's a fairly high stress position. If you blow games the YOU are the reason why the team lost and is sucking. That's a lot of pressure to put on a player in a team sport. And it's even more difficult because "all you had to go was get three outs". They're harder to identify and find but they're also a major position because it can be the difference between Omaha or sitting at home. It's hard too because pitchers that go to college all want to be starters to increase their draft stock and that is a piece of college baseball. So a guy like Landon Sims or Nate Dohm if you tell them that they have to stay in the bullpen odds are they'll likely hit the portal and go somewhere that will let them start. Essentially closers are the kickers of baseball.

So as far as recruiting closers specifically you're probably best off:

1) Getting one out of the portal and getting someone like Aaron Nixon.
2) Using an elite prospect that is an underclassman that has electric stuff like Landon Sims assuming that player isn't needed to fill a starting role. The Cardinals kind of did this with Adam Wainwright early in his career. I think this is where Makhai Grant being injured really has hurt us this year.
3) Using a senior that has experience that has worked his way up through the bullpen through the year from middle relief to set-up to closer. Like Cole Gordon. This is where Stone Simmons being injured has hurt as well.

JUCO guys are JUCO for a reason. Meaning they likely lack something that makes them elite at the SEC level to have a pitch that you would like to have with a closer. That doesn't mean they can't be good players. It just means they're probably better suited for other relief roles.

I could make a strong argument that the biggest problem the team has is no closer. 9 of our 14 losses have been by one run. I'm not sure how many blown saves are in that total but it's several I'm sure. Imagine being a MLB team and over half of your losses are by one run. That's brutal. And it probably will cost Lemonis his job.

[Coach34]

Many of you know baseball at all levels much better than me (Starting 7th Grade Second Baseman in '68, but many games attended since!). My question, How in this world are we now 2 1/2 years past a NC and have so many holes in the lineup, questionable Bullpen with no closer, no 3rd baseman, questionable 2nd baseman, backup catcher that has thrown no one out, little hitting in order 6-9, no DH, no bench, playing guys left on left batting or hitting 0.00 or others less than the Mendosa line? Heck you have to add the batting averages of a couple of the past weekend's disaster to even reach the Mendoza line. Looks to me the wheels are still off, except maybe a couple back on since 14th followed by 13th in the league. Also appears to me the league is top heavy, ala MBB in the NCAA tourney.

This is an example of taking a fine tooth comb to us without even looking at the other SEC teams and things they have going...Our stats compared to the rest of the SEC are solid

Hitting? All Games- 7th in Avg, 9th in OBP, 9th runs scored, 7th in BB's and 4th in fewest K's...SEC Only- 8th in Avg, 6th in OBP, 5th in Runs scored, 7th in BB's and 5th in fewest K's- so basically top half in almost everything in SEC-only games....these stats conflict alot with your post

Pitching? 6th in ERA...7th in BA allowed...5th in Runs allowed...6th in BB's allowed...8th in K's.....SEC-Only? 5th in ERA...4th in BA allowed...4th in runs allowed..9th in BB's...9th in K's

Fielding? Tied for 1st in the SEC and one of the best in the country

People acting like we suck simply arent paying attention or just stirring the pot because they want a change no matter what happens

[Commercecomet24]

This is an example of taking a fine tooth comb to us without even looking at the other SEC teams and things they have going...Our stats compared to the rest of the SEC are solid

Hitting? All Games- 7th in Avg, 9th in OBP, 9th runs scored, 7th in BB's and 4th in fewest K's...SEC Only- 8th in Avg, 6th in OBP, 5th in Runs scored, 7th in BB's and 5th in fewest K's- so basically top half in almost everything in SEC-only games....these stats conflict alot with your post

Pitching? 6th in ERA...7th in BA allowed...5th in Runs allowed...6th in BB's allowed...8th in K's.....SEC-Only? 5th in ERA...4th in BA allowed...4th in runs allowed..9th in BB's...9th in K's

Fielding? Tied for 1st in the SEC and one of the best in the country

People acting like we suck simply arent paying attention or just stirring the pot because they want a change no matter what happens

I don't think a lot of folks watch anyone but us play. When all you focus on is one thing you'll find warts. That's being said we have the potential to be better than we've shown. The lack of a closer has kept us from being a top 15 team. We definitely don't suck and we are a good team but we could be much better right now. IF we can find a way to close games we'll be tough to deal with, but half season over we haven't found it yet. There is hope.

[Coach34]

I don't think a lot of folks watch anyone but us play. When all you focus on is one thing you'll find warts. That's being said we have the potential to be better than we've shown. The lack of a closer has kept us from being a top 15 team. We definitely don't suck and we are a good team but we could be much better right now. IF we can find a way to close games we'll be tough to deal with, but half season over we haven't found it yet. There is hope.

Exactly- if we had a Closer we would be 10-5 in the SEC at worst right now and in line to host a Regional. We arent far off. But yes- you can certainly blame Lemon/Parker for us not having a Closer-type that has cost us games

[StarkVegasSteve]

I don't think a lot of folks watch anyone but us play. When all you focus on is one thing you'll find warts. That's being said we have the potential to be better than we've shown. The lack of a closer has kept us from being a top 15 team. We definitely don't suck and we are a good team but we could be much better right now. IF we can find a way to close games we'll be tough to deal with, but half season over we haven't found it yet. There is hope.

I think the closer is the issue for a BUNCH of people. As strange as it is just having a competent closer probably has us in the tournament in 22 and definitely in 23 and would probably have us hosting this year. That's now 3 years Lemonis and his PC have failed to identify a closer either already on the roster, through recruiting, or through the portal. At a certain point it stops being an anomaly and becomes a trend.

[Goldendawg]

This is an example of taking a fine tooth comb to us without even looking at the other SEC teams and things they have going...Our stats compared to the rest of the SEC are solid

Hitting? All Games- 7th in Avg, 9th in OBP, 9th runs scored, 7th in BB's and 4th in fewest K's...SEC Only- 8th in Avg, 6th in OBP, 5th in Runs scored, 7th in BB's and 5th in fewest K's- so basically top half in almost everything in SEC-only games....these stats conflict alot with your post

Pitching? 6th in ERA...7th in BA allowed...5th in Runs allowed...6th in BB's allowed...8th in K's.....SEC-Only? 5th in ERA...4th in BA allowed...4th in runs allowed..9th in BB's...9th in K's

Fielding? Tied for 1st in the SEC and one of the best in the country

People acting like we suck simply arent paying attention or just stirring the pot because they want a change no matter what happens

So except for fielding about mid-pack or so? You're right. I don't watch other teams unless I am at the Dude watching us play them. I don't care how they are doing against other opposition in football, MBB, or baseball. I just care about how we are doing and if we are playing to our potential and hopefully winning when we should and being competitive and interesting to $upport and watch. Don't claim to be an expert, just a 55 year plus fan from my youth. Hail State and sweep AU!

[Commercecomet24]

I think the closer is the issue for a BUNCH of people. As strange as it is just having a competent closer probably has us in the tournament in 22 and definitely in 23 and would probably have us hosting this year. That's now 3 years Lemonis and his PC have failed to identify a closer either already on the roster, through recruiting, or through the portal. At a certain point it stops being an anomaly and becomes a trend.

I 100% agree with everything you posted.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I 100% agree with everything you posted.

And I don't think it's a Lemonis can't see it thing. I just think unfortunately we don't have any good options on the staff. I think they planned on Schuelke or Auger being the closer. Unfortunately, Auger doesn't have put away stuff consistently and Schuelke doesn't either. I think you'd love for Colby Holcombe to become that guy but he just doesn't have any consistency.

[basedog]

Exactly- if we had a Closer we would be 10-5 in the SEC at worst right now and in line to host a Regional. We arent far off. But yes- you can certainly blame Lemon/Parker for us not having a Closer-type that has cost us games

But we don't have a closer, also we are 7-8 in conference, I'm hoping we close out at least 15-15. I also see the top 3 teams are just better, then you have 4-10 about the same. It's all about how we do the second half of the season, as you know I'm not a big Lemonis fan, if he makes some noise in the regionals like play in the final of a regional, I can see him being back.

I don't get upset with what you and 24 talk about, we just agree to disagree, it really doesn't matter what I think or anyone else of ED. I don't care for the "I told you" from either side.

We should win 2 against Auburn, they is a start for the second half.

Lastly, I'm not a big stat guy, I'm a bottom line guy, just win, something we haven't done a lot the last 2 1/2 years.

[ScooterDog]

Coach34 I appreciate the data, but this is year-to-date data I assume. I would like to see what our numbers are for the last 6 games. Not asking you to do that, but I don?t think the trend would look so good for the current games. Just my opinion.

[Goldendawg]

But we don't have a closer, also we are 7-8 in conference, I'm hoping we close out at least 15-15. I also see the top 3 teams are just better, then you have 4-10 about the same. It's all about how we do the second half of the season, as you know I'm not a big Lemonis fan, if he makes some noise in the regionals like play in the final of a regional, I can see him being back.

I don't get upset with what you and 24 talk about, we just agree to disagree, it really doesn't matter what I think or anyone else of ED. I don't care for the "I told you" from either side.

We should win 2 against Auburn, they is a start for the second half.

Lastly, I'm not a big stat guy, I'm a bottom line guy, just win, something we haven't done a lot the last 2 1/2 years.

100%. Hail State!

[Bdawg]

My question to all on this board is do you see us EVER getting back to Omaha with Lemonis running the program? I certainly don't and that is the reason I'm ready to move on even if we squeak into a regional somewhere. With Lemonis, and given the hitters we lose after this year ends, I really don't see how we will be as good next season as we are this season. Does anyone see our program improving next year over this year? It's pretty obvious Lemonis can manage a team but he can't build a team.

Seems there’s a lot of evidence that says he can’t take us back to Omaha. This is fully his team and we look pretty mediocre to me. Mediocre is not MSU baseball.

[Coach34]

Seems there’s a lot of evidence that says he can’t take us back to Omaha. This is fully his team and we look pretty mediocre to me. Mediocre is not MSU baseball.

How many times has State won the SEC in the last 30 years?
How many West titles?
How many SEC Tourney titles?

We have had 5 losing seasons in the last 15 years
We have had 7 losing SEC seasons in the last 15 years (excluding 2020)

Where do you guys get the high horse you are riding? State baseball aint Ohio State football or anything like it. We are a Top 25 program in baseball. We arent Elite in baseball

[Todd4State]

But we don't have a closer, also we are 7-8 in conference, I'm hoping we close out at least 15-15. I also see the top 3 teams are just better, then you have 4-10 about the same. It's all about how we do the second half of the season, as you know I'm not a big Lemonis fan, if he makes some noise in the regionals like play in the final of a regional, I can see him being back.

I don't get upset with what you and 24 talk about, we just agree to disagree, it really doesn't matter what I think or anyone else of ED. I don't care for the "I told you" from either side.

We should win 2 against Auburn, they is a start for the second half.

Lastly, I'm not a big stat guy, I'm a bottom line guy, just win, something we haven't done a lot the last 2 1/2 years.

The reality is we are improved but also underachieving. Both sides are correct.

[SPMT]

How many times has State won the SEC in the last 30 years?
How many West titles?
How many SEC Tourney titles?

We have had 5 losing seasons in the last 15 years
We have had 7 losing SEC seasons in the last 15 years (excluding 2020)

Where do you guys get the high horse you are riding? State baseball aint Ohio State football or anything like it. We are a Top 25 program in baseball. We arent Elite in baseball

Bro, don?t glaze the current staff out of pride or just to be argumentative. We won regionals from 2011 - 2021 all but three years. We made the tournament all but one year (2015).

We are not on that trajectory currently and we haven?t looked good as of late. Just be honest and call a spade a spade. It?s totally reasonable and plausible to think we will finish well but it?s also the same that we implode. I agree, let it play out, but there is nothing wrong with people bitching about the current performance, which is average at best.

[boot]

How many times has State won the SEC in the last 30 years?
How many West titles?
How many SEC Tourney titles?

We have had 5 losing seasons in the last 15 years
We have had 7 losing SEC seasons in the last 15 years (excluding 2020)

Where do you guys get the high horse you are riding? State baseball aint Ohio State football or anything like it. We are a Top 25 program in baseball. We arent Elite in baseball

2011 - NCAA Tourney appearance
2012 - SEC tourney champs, NCAA tourney app
2013 - CWS appearance (runner up)
2014 - NCAA Tournament appearance
2015 - Sucked ass
2016 - SEC Reg season champs, Super regional
2017 - Super regional
2018 - CWS appearance
2019 - CWS appearance
2021 - National Champions

Looks like we were pretty damn close to elite to me. I don?t think you could find 5 better resumes in the country during that span, and Lemonis somehow let it slip away.