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Thread: For all who hate dink and dunk

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    For all who hate dink and dunk

    I feel that?s pretty much all I saw the whole Super Bowl. I?m not saying I?m a fan of or anything but it seemed a lot posters on here didn?t like it in the past, but it sure was effective tonight. I?m sure playcalling and design is better and a run game by SF changes the pace some, but I can hardly remember but a couple deeper balls in the game. Just felt like I was watching some of Leach?s concepts out there with shallow crossers and finding open space and attacking it. I thought it was fun game to watch and showed you can win a Super Bowl with a short passing game. And yes, I know having a Mahomes is quite nice, but just food for thought. Heck of a game. Entertaining. Congrats Chris Jones and Willie Gay!

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    Senior Member Charlie_Sheen420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdawg View Post
    I feel that?s pretty much all I saw the whole Super Bowl. I?m not saying I?m a fan of or anything but it seemed a lot posters on here didn?t like it in the past, but it sure was effective tonight. I?m sure playcalling and design is better and a run game by SF changes the pace some, but I can hardly remember but a couple deeper balls in the game. Just felt like I was watching some of Leach?s concepts out there with shallow crossers and finding open space and attacking it. I thought it was fun game to watch and showed you can win a Super Bowl with a short passing game. And yes, I know having a Mahomes is quite nice, but just food for thought. Heck of a game. Entertaining. Congrats Chris Jones and Willie Gay!
    Brock Purdy is a fraud, he?s not an elite qb. He?s a game manager which is fine if you surround him with talent like Deebo and CMC, but without them he?s not getting any team to the Super Bowl slinging it so hence dink and dunk. The 49ers defense kept Mahomes contained but eventually the elite qb showed up and won. Mahomes can sling it, Purdy is dink and dunk. Dink and dunk will only get you so far

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    Mahomes can sling it. But didn’t see him really push it down field. Both sides looked pretty dink and dink to me. SF just has a good run game too.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    I think there are several reasons for that.

    1. Most of the offenses in the NFL are highly related to the Bill Walsh West Coast Offense- including the two we saw tonight because Bill Walsh produced a TON of NFL head coaches. There is a lot of heavy influence from Walsh and there's really only a couple of other variations of offenses in the NFL. That means a lot of horizontal high percentage passes/concepts that are relatively quick that are explosive with YAC.

    2. There are a lot of Mike Leach Air Raid concepts run in the NFL because many of them are similar to what Walsh ran and so they fit in very nicely to the Bill Walsh West Coast offense. Also a lot of college teams run the Air Raid or run Air Raid concepts so for a college QB going to the NFL it's an easier transition as far as learning the concepts.

    3. Deeper passes take longer to develop in general and it's difficult to do that in the NFL with the caliber of defenses that a team faces week in and week out. You might be able to do that if you have a generational talent offensive line like the 90's Cowboys who ran a version of Air Coryell under Norv Turner and Ernie Zampese. But it's not common. Defenses in the NFL are bigger, stronger, and faster.

    4. NFL teams know that the most explosive/successful plays in general are pass plays which is one reason why you are seeing rushing gradually going down throughout the league. The 49ers were actually one of the more run heavy teams in the league and they were about 50/50 run/pass this year. Also, running backs are now expected to be able to catch the ball out of the backfield and function as weapons like Marshall Faulk back in the day. You do not see very many Franco Harris types in football anymore. Also, because the NFL knows that running backs have such a short shelf life they try to maximize their production so running them 30-35 times a game isn't common unless you have an Adrian Peterson freak of nature.

    5. The NFL is a QB driven league so there has been a big effort over the years to protect them. Joe Montana's career with the 49ers was essentially ended by a hit that would have gotten the Giants player suspended and fined in today's game. Now the game is set up so that QB's can play into their 40's and offenses and rules are geared towards passing and allowing them to shine as much as possible to maximize their marketability. Montana essentially only played 12 seasons. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees played over 20 each. That's essentially 8 more years of selling jerseys, promoting the league, and etc. which means more money for the NFL.

    6. There are safety concerns and rules that are geared towards safety favor passing. You are not allowed to head hunt receivers anymore and since the QB is almost untouchable it makes a lot of sense to throw the ball to take advantage of that. It was always funny to me to see MSU fans and media proclaim that Woody Marks would somehow stay more healthy running between the tackles compared to not getting "blown up" on swing passes. Well, Woody didn't make it through last season while every season in the Air Raid he played every game even if he did get banged up some. If you were going to get into a fight with someone would you prefer it be a safety or a nickleback or Chris Jones? People arguing that running up the middle is somehow safer are saying that they would rather fight Chris Jones.

    7. To me, I agree- throwing the ball around is a more exciting game of football than what the 1970's Pittsburgh Steelers did on offense. There is more of an emphasis on spreading the ball around whether it be running or passing. It's also much more difficult for the defense to stop IMO because they do not know what the offense is going to do or who is going to get the ball on any play while at the same time it does allow a platform for stars to emerge.

    8. You are slowly seeing SEC teams shift towards passing more and more. And a lot of it is because of what they are doing in the pros. Now obviously it won't always be in the form of a modern WCO at the SEC level but offenses like the Veer and Shoot like we will run under Lebby, a pro style variant that I suspect that Alabama will run, and etc. are going to become more and more a part of the norm in the SEC. What we ran this year was essentially a modern version of Sylvester Croom offense and we got the same result on the field and in the win/loss column.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_Sheen420 View Post
    Brock Purdy is a fraud, he?s not an elite qb. He?s a game manager which is fine if you surround him with talent like Deebo and CMC, but without them he?s not getting any team to the Super Bowl slinging it so hence dink and dunk. The 49ers defense kept Mahomes contained but eventually the elite qb showed up and won. Mahomes can sling it, Purdy is dink and dunk. Dink and dunk will only get you so far
    I would like to see the 49ers add Dak Prescott.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_Sheen420 View Post
    Brock Purdy is a fraud, he?s not an elite qb. He?s a game manager which is fine if you surround him with talent like Deebo and CMC, but without them he?s not getting any team to the Super Bowl slinging it so hence dink and dunk. The 49ers defense kept Mahomes contained but eventually the elite qb showed up and won. Mahomes can sling it, Purdy is dink and dunk. Dink and dunk will only get you so far
    9.6ypa is not dink and dunk. Good grief. For comparison Mahomes averaged 7ypa. Second place among QBs with more than 2000 passing yards is Tua with 8.3ypa. Purdy has been outstanding this year. Btw he also led the league in QBR.

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    Senior Member msstate7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_Sheen420 View Post
    Brock Purdy is a fraud, he?s not an elite qb. He?s a game manager which is fine if you surround him with talent like Deebo and CMC, but without them he?s not getting any team to the Super Bowl slinging it so hence dink and dunk. The 49ers defense kept Mahomes contained but eventually the elite qb showed up and won. Mahomes can sling it, Purdy is dink and dunk. Dink and dunk will only get you so far
    I'm not sold on purdy either. It'll be very interesting what they do with him. If they give him elite qb money, I think it will cost them. They're in a bad spot like Philly was with hurts last year. Wasn't sold on hurts, and he has me thinking I was right after this season

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    Senior Member msstate7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3467 View Post
    9.6ypa is not dink and dunk. Good grief. For comparison Mahomes averaged 7ypa. Second place among QBs with more than 2000 passing yards is Tua with 8.3ypa. Purdy has been outstanding this year. Btw he also led the league in QBR.
    Sorta deceiving. 49ers lead nfl in yards after catch. They've been a very horizontal passing team the last 5 years

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    Quote Originally Posted by msstate7 View Post
    Sorta deceiving. 49ers lead nfl in yards after catch. They've been a very horizontal passing team the last 5 years
    Purdy is second behind Stroud in CAY/Cmp (completed air yards per completion) and first in CAY/PA (per attempt).

    Mahomes leads the NFL by a wide margin in YAC and Purdy is fourth.

    None of what is being said on this thread is based in fact.

    Edited to add: YAC/Cmp leader is Purdy with 6.7 followed by Mahomes at 6.4.
    Last edited by Matt3467; 02-12-2024 at 10:04 AM.

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    Senior Member msstate7's Avatar
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    Delete. Wrong year
    Last edited by msstate7; 02-12-2024 at 10:21 AM.

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    Senior Member Charlie_Sheen420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3467 View Post
    9.6ypa is not dink and dunk. Good grief. For comparison Mahomes averaged 7ypa. Second place among QBs with more than 2000 passing yards is Tua with 8.3ypa. Purdy has been outstanding this year. Btw he also led the league in QBR.
    I?m not saying he?s a terrible qb, but he isn?t the elite possible mvp qb the media has portrayed him to be either. A lot of his numbers were inflated due to YAC and that?s credit to the talent they have put around him. However he is not currently a qb that can throw dimes through tight windows or long accurate passes like your Josh Allen, Aaron Rodgers, Mahomes, and Burrow (when healthy) can. He?s basically Kirk Cousins, which is fine if you surround him with talent like the 49ers have. The mistake will be giving him a big contract like those elite ones I just mentioned, and then they won?t be able to afford all that talent around him. As I said Purdy can?t win games himself slinging it around like the others above have shown they can. He?s an average qb, not elite, hence why I say he?s a fraud and about to get paid like an elite qb.

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    Senior Member Saltydog's Avatar
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    KC outrushed the Niners too.........
    "The QB and the receiver weren't on the same page there, but hey its only week eleven". (Jack Cristil)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_Sheen420 View Post
    I?m not saying he?s a terrible qb, but he isn?t the elite possible mvp qb the media has portrayed him to be either. A lot of his numbers were inflated due to YAC and that?s credit to the talent they have put around him. However he is not currently a qb that can throw dimes through tight windows or long accurate passes like your Josh Allen, Aaron Rodgers, Mahomes, and Burrow (when healthy) can. He?s basically Kirk Cousins, which is fine if you surround him with talent like the 49ers have. The mistake will be giving him a big contract like those elite ones I just mentioned, and then they won?t be able to afford all that talent around him. As I said Purdy can?t win games himself slinging it around like the others above have shown they can. He?s an average qb, not elite, hence why I say he?s a fraud and about to get paid like an elite qb.

    As much as I like Prescott, I think the Cowboys over paid him when they needed to buy more of a whole team. Dak is really good. He just isn't elite and should not be getting elite money. His next team will not be paying him near what he coaxed out of Jerrah.

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    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainObvious View Post
    As much as I like Prescott, I think the Cowboys over paid him when they needed to buy more of a whole team. Dak is really good. He just isn't elite and should not be getting elite money. His next team will not be paying him near what he coaxed out of Jerrah.
    Frankly with the lack of support around Dak it's incredibly difficult to judge. And yet, he's won 65% of his games as a starter, and led the league this season in Completions and TDs.
    That team had no business being 12-5 the past 2 years - and with Dak they were. The 2020 season without him they were 6-10. If a guy can pretty much single handedly make a marginal franchise a regular playoff contender - over a long period of time mind you - he's damn elite.
    "After dealing with Ole Miss for over a year," he said, "I've learned to expect their leadership to do and say things that the leadership at other Division I schools would never consider doing and to justify their actions by reminding themselves that "We're Ole Miss.""
    - Tom Mars, Esq. 4.9.18

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg View Post
    Frankly with the lack of support around Dak it's incredibly difficult to judge. And yet, he's won 65% of his games as a starter, and led the league this season in Completions and TDs.
    That team had no business being 12-5 the past 2 years - and with Dak they were. The 2020 season without him they were 6-10. If a guy can pretty much single handedly make a marginal franchise a regular playoff contender - over a long period of time mind you - he's damn elite.
    So you would include Dak with Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, etc as elite?

    Dak is tied for the worst playoff record of any QB in history at 2-5. The Cowboys had one of the top 3 easiest schedules this year. Only 3 of their wins came against winning teams and that was Seattle who barely finished above .500, Philly that fell off a cliff losing 5 of their last 6, and the Lions at home which took a controversial call for them to be able to get out with a 1 point win.

    Dallas has had consistently one of the better offensive lines in the league since Dak has been there. Outside of a few injuries and the horrible RT play they had this year they still graded out as the 6th best line by PFF. They also started the year with the 6th best WR group by PFF. Dak has always had someone to throw to whether it be Dez, Cooper, Witten, Beasley, Lamb, Cobb, Gallup.

    Dallas actually had a top 5 defense this year (though I suspect it has much to do with the weak schedule) and a top 10 defense in '17, '18, and '19.

    Point being it hasn't been a Dak only show like some say. I posted a while ago and included stats when he was here at State and in big games he would struggle. It's hard to convince others you're elite and not win big games unless you're Dan Marino.

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    Dak has shit the bed when it matters most which sucks. He's been better than he's given credit for but that's the nature of the position he's in.

    Mahomes is amazing. He was throwing to absolute nobodies and an old guy in Kelce this year. Granted his defense allowed him room for mediocrity at times.

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    I just want what works in college. Whatever scores the most points or wins the most games. Fewer points with more time control can work, but the offense can't be anemic. It still has to score a decent amount.

    For whatever reason, Leach's offenses worked much better at TT and WSU, usually top 5 or 10 in the country. When we hired Leach, we all thought we were getting the Washington State top offense with a good Mississippi State defense. I don't know if Leach had dink and dunk at TT and WSU, but it worked to get yards and I think points.

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    Senior Member TaleofTwoDogs's Avatar
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    If San Fran had won the game, Purdy would be the G.O.A.T. on this board. Guaranteed.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MedDawg View Post
    I just want what works in college. Whatever scores the most points or wins the most games. Fewer points with more time control can work, but the offense can't be anemic. It still has to score a decent amount.

    For whatever reason, Leach's offenses worked much better at TT and WSU, usually top 5 or 10 in the country. When we hired Leach, we all thought we were getting the Washington State top offense with a good Mississippi State defense. I don't know if Leach had dink and dunk at TT and WSU, but it worked to get yards and I think points.
    Leach's offenses worked in college and they worked here. I think we would have only gotten better and had more success as the years went on because we would have had guys like Chris Parson running the offense which would have led to deeper passes more frequently and he also has the ability to scramble. Throwing deeper = less dink and dunk.

    Now that said- I think Lebby's offense will be very good for us. There is more of a run and shoot emphasis which means more downfield passing however, at the same time the RPO's function as the 3 step/quick passing game so we will still have that aspect in the scheme as well.

    But the biggest thing that Lebby does is use tempo. That has given Ole Miss and Auburn notably huge advantages in the past. And it's something that I have always wanted us to do more- Dan and Leach did tempo some. But not as much as I would have liked. Moorhead and Barbay were too busy trying to come up with some play call to blow everyone's minds to use it. When you use tempo what happens is in addition to potentially catching the defense off guard it allows you to run more plays. I remember Ole Miss under Freeze sometimes running around 100 play on offense whereas a typical team probably runs around 70 a game. That's a lot more opportunities to score.

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaleofTwoDogs View Post
    If San Fran had won the game, Purdy would be the G.O.A.T. on this board. Guaranteed.
    I doubt it. I wouldn't have called Eli the GOAT for beating Brady. It takes more than one.

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