Some "draw the line" needs to start happening IMO. I kinda get some irritated if someone messes with statues of George Washington or Thomas Jefferson or messes with 4th of July holiday.
And something I didn't know till the other day .. there are actually statues of Lenin in the US?? WTF??
The line is different for everyone, but I personally don't hold with desecrating and taking down statues of Washington and Jefferson. They were certainly complicated historical figures like all historical figures are. But the statues of them weren't put up to glamorize the fact that they owned slaves. Confederate statues I can see taking down because those statues were put up as a middle finger, and those people did actually promote slavery.
I think you have to look at what the purpose of the monument is. What impact did that individual have or what is the monument for. Naturally the Founding fathers monuments are more towards the courage to help create this country. We don't have monuments up of Benadict Arnold or other British citizens that I know of, I am not sure why we would have other statues of traitors to the United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg2003
We have people celebrating the Confederacy and Nazism so a statue of Lenin shouldn't come as a surprise. I'll bet there's one or two of Stalin if you look hard enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgday166
This is my general sentiment too. We can't erase the founding fathers because they weren't perfect. In fact, they drafted the constitution in a way that allows for future generations to amend it. They anticipated change. They welcomed it from the very start. My oldest and I talk about this some and what it would've been like if we lived in the time of slavery or the heart of the civil rights movement. I'm honest with him and tell him that I hope id be on the right side of history, but given the status quo of the times, I can't be confident that I would view things like I view them now. People's surroundings, the current economy, operational standards, viewpoints in general on segregation, etc... were all so different that there's no telling what we would've thought or done in those times. Now we're educated and can see the lack of humanity for what it really is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg2003
Actually, there are more than you would think. There is only a "sort of" monument to Arnold called the Boot Monument - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_M...%20name%20him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe
But, there are tons of statues and memorials to British citizens and colonial era leaders. We have a square here in Brunswick named for Governor James Wright - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wright_(governor)
Wright is best known as the only colonial governor to have reclaimed a Colony from the rebellious Americans. He did so after retaking Savannah in December 1778. Wrightsboro, Georgia is also named for him.
Savannah also has a Wright Square named for him - which also has a real interesting history with the huge Gordon memorial and the burial of Tomochichi. - https://www.savannah.com/wright-square/
I'm sure Boston, NY, Philly, Charleston all have similar items from their colonial eras.
Context matters.
If someone put up a statue of Jefferson somewhere to celebrate that he was a slave owner or serial rapist, or for the purpose of intimidating black people, it should come down. I'm not aware of any such statues though.
We shouldn't erase the history of how he treated his fellow human beings though, so any monument to Jefferson or Washington's accomplishments needs to be placed in proper context. That might mean including some kind of reminder plaque, or maybe just doing a better job of teaching the full story in schools. If we stop seeing the Founding Fathers as flawless gods and instead just regular people like us who stepped up when it counted, we can realize that we are just as capable as them of accomplishing great things ourselves.
Very well said and insightful. My view is there has never been a civilization, country, city, state or person that was perfect. The history of every civilization and individual have issues and wrongs that were committed. I'm of the firm belief that this country was founded on correct and great principles by imperfect people(as we all are). The concepts and laws that were put into place by our founders have tried to be copied by others many times over. Not to get overly religious but God put us on this earth with free agency, the freedom to choose and to strive to be like Him. While this country hasn't been perfect it has strived to become more perfect and better, like each of us strive to be better each day(hopefully). I believe I'm a better person than I was when I was a young man. I've learned and grown in many ways, just like this country, and we're still learning and striving. I'm proud to be a son of Mississippi but more proud to be an American!Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
Great post. we can't erase how the times were.. so as long as the statues aren't up for the bad things in their lives.. then yes i agree jefferson, lincoln, washington and many others... should stay up to show and promote the good things in america.
Hack and Commerce - y'all have it spot on and I wish more saw it that way.
The rub with those observations is that this is what those of us in the field have been working to do for years. When I was in school at State, the approach you are describing was derided as "Revisionist History", and has been heavily fought against by those outside the field of history. The modern field of history has worked hard to show through first hand accounts what was happening and why - warts and all - and we get drug thru the mud for it.
I'm a huge history buff and study constantly. I love American history but I study the history of all civilizations to compare and contrast, so I guess I have a little different view of things than the average person. I love this country and the ideas and principles that it was founded on. I also know you have to look at the bad to understand where you've been and to understand what you have to do to correct those things. Can't bury your head in the sand to warts. This country, has what i consider the greatest system ever created, by people who had a great vision but also had imperfections.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
ETA wish we had the opportunity to sit down and chat sometime. I would enjoy that.
The decision to remove any statue, monument or any other historical item should be made by the ruling entity of the jurisdiction there in! People who willfully destroy them for whatever reason should be jailed.
Yep. On private property in Seattle and I can just about guarentee you that instead of being desicrated or torn down, its getting the pigeon shit polished off of it every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgday166
Interesting, thank you Brunswick. I guess it is just not publicized. For almost all of these monuments, most people don't give them a second glance. I am all for moving the Civil War monuments to a museum or other location if that is an issue. I don't think just destroying them is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
We definitely need to do better at giving information to go along with the actual monument.
My all time favorite was the people that I saw tearing down a statue of that facist slave owner Winston Churchill.
We'd have to set aside a couple of days, because we would talk a lot of baseball before we ever hit history stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24
What will they do to Stone Mountain? Dynamite or a yuge sander?
Truth, lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
That dang Churchill lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
It wasn't about him being a slave owner - it was about things like this -Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
And I'm not defending vandalism - but, Churchill is long known to be a very complex and controversial figure in England -Quote:
In 1937, Churchill told the Palestine Royal Commission: "I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29701767