The Mississippi State Baseball Paradox

This refers to a large portion of MSU baseball fans and maybe fans in general.

We want to win. We want to play in preseason tournaments, play tough brand name teams OOC, win the Governor's Cup, win the SEC, SEC Tournament, host a regional and a Super Regional as a National Seed, and of course go to Omaha and win it all.

Which is fair because we have accomplished all of those things- most of those things multiple times.

BUT

We have a large segment that also demands that we be "nice" when doing it. We want people to think we're good, classy, and nice. That we just enjoy the game because baseball is great. We want to give players food after the game. And we want the players and coaches to be nice as well. And in turn we are expected to be nice to our coaches and players.

The problem is a large segment of our fans (hi Everett Kennard!) value and place being nice over winning.

We look for answers as to how and why we could drop so quickly as a program in such a short period of time and some of it goes back to overemphasizing the nice over winning.

For example- Lemonis decided to keep several pitching recruits who were known to be injured coming into school. None of those pitchers are with us anymore. That has created a lot of problems. We also kept Foxhall because we wanted to give him another chance. He still sucks. We also have given players on the current roster chances to stay instead of recruiting over them in the portal. Because we're nice.

Just an observation from afar. Until we prioritize winning over being nice like John Cohen did when he was our coach we'll struggle. But people will like us!

Yep. Not sure that the keeping pitchers thing was nice over winning. It was more potential over what's actually there. But everything else is pretty much spot on. And you're right, a large segment would rather be nice and lose than be Tennessee and win. And that's not an opinion, I have seen multiple "fans" over the last few weeks say they'd stop supporting the program, which is a load of BS, if we became like Tennessee. Hell, I wish we were like Tennessee. They got eyeballs to college baseball and play in a cracker box. We'd have an Omaha level stadium to show off when people tuned in.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

This refers to a large portion of MSU baseball fans and maybe fans in general.

We want to win. We want to play in preseason tournaments, play tough brand name teams OOC, win the Governor's Cup, win the SEC, SEC Tournament, host a regional and a Super Regional as a National Seed, and of course go to Omaha and win it all.

Which is fair because we have accomplished all of those things- most of those things multiple times.

BUT

We have a large segment that also demands that we be "nice" when doing it. We want people to think we're good, classy, and nice. That we just enjoy the game because baseball is great. We want to give players food after the game. And we want the players and coaches to be nice as well. And in turn we are expected to be nice to our coaches and players.

The problem is a large segment of our fans (hi Everett Kennard!) value and place being nice over winning.

We look for answers as to how and why we could drop so quickly as a program in such a short period of time and some of it goes back to overemphasizing the nice over winning.

For example- Lemonis decided to keep several pitching recruits who were known to be injured coming into school. None of those pitchers are with us anymore. That has created a lot of problems. We also kept Foxhall because we wanted to give him another chance. He still sucks. We also have given players on the current roster chances to stay instead of recruiting over them in the portal. Because we're nice.

Just an observation from afar. Until we prioritize winning over being nice like John Cohen did when he was our coach we'll struggle. But people will like us!

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You act like it is an either or. It isn't. You can both win and be nice. No one saying you don't do the hard things in your job like holding people accountable and playing tough competitive ball. You can do all that and still be nice. You can be an asshole and suck too.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

You act like it is an either or. It isn't. You can both win and be nice. No one saying you don't do the hard things in your job like holding people accountable and playing tough competitive ball. You can do all that and still be nice. You can be an asshole and suck too.

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Someone's gotta be the villain. Why Not Us? Let's be The Bad Boys. Being nice isn't that fun anyways.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

You act like it is an either or. It isn't. You can both win and be nice. No one saying you don't do the hard things in your job like holding people accountable and playing tough competitive ball. You can do all that and still be nice. You can be an asshole and suck too.

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^^^^^^^

I'll disagree a bit - I think most of our fans want teams to win with class and sportsmanship. They can have fire. They can showboat at appropriate moments (Big Hit Mac comes to mind). They need to have hustle. They can be cocky.

The people who want "Nice" the same people who "root for Ole Miss because it helps Mississippi when any of us win". I don't know what to call them, but I refuse to call them fans.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Yep. Not sure that the keeping pitchers thing was nice over winning. It was more potential over what's actually there. But everything else is pretty much spot on. And you're right, a large segment would rather be nice and lose than be Tennessee and win. And that's not an opinion, I have seen multiple "fans" over the last few weeks say they'd stop supporting the program, which is a load of BS, if we became like Tennessee. Hell, I wish we were like Tennessee. They got eyeballs to college baseball and play in a cracker box. We'd have an Omaha level stadium to show off when people tuned in.

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TN is a bunch of classless douchebags led by an emotional and petulant child who assaults umpires.

You can be a hard ass, tough, and cut peoples throat while still playing the right way and respecting the game of baseball. It ain't hard.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

TN is a bunch of classless douchebags led by an emotional and petulant child who assaults umpires.

You can be a hard ass, tough, and cut peoples throat while still playing the right way and respecting the game of baseball. It ain't hard.

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And we're led by a guy who sits on a bucket and gets run ruled. I'd take Vitello. "Play the right way" will y'all stop with this crap. You can say what you mean because it's painfully obvious. Y'all want to us play like a bunch of private school white kids from the 1980s. Screw that. Go win. It doesn't matter how you do it. The 2021 team wasn't choir boys. They celebrated and were obnoxious with it. They talked crap. It's just acceptable because that was our team. Y'all just don't like it as much when it's being done to you.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

And we're led by a guy who sits on a bucket and gets run ruled. I'd take Vitello. "Play the right way" will y'all stop with this crap. You can say what you mean because it's painfully obvious. Y'all want to us play like a bunch of private school white kids from the 1980s. Screw that. Go win. It doesn't matter how you do it. The 2021 team wasn't choir boys. They celebrated and were obnoxious with it. They talked crap. It's just acceptable because that was our team. Y'all just don't like it as much when it's being done to you.

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Whatever. Nobody on that 2021 team ever assaulted an umpire or ran around the bases flipping off all the outfielders.

And why are you bringing race into this? A lot of the TN douschbage who assault umpires and flip off opponents while rounding the bases are white kids. I'd take a team full of Dakota Jordan's every day. Get out of here with that garbage.

I'll give you an example of what I am looking for from our baseball team.

My son was pitching in a 7-8th grade game at our rivals field. We are ahead by one run going into their last at bat. The bases are loaded with two outs and their dugout is chirping and screaming at my son. Instead of letting it get to him, he strikes the last batter out and proceeds to put his finger to his lips in a shushing motion aimed at their dugout as he walks off the mound. Our coach gets on to him and says we don't act like that and I agree with the coach, but I also want my son to have the attitude that if you're going to chirp at me I'm going to shove it down your throat and make you like it.

That's what I want from players and coaches at MSU. Jeff Brantley was an example of that from my perspective.

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Originally Posted by GeoDawg

I'll give you an example of what I am looking for from our baseball team.

My son was pitching in a 7-8th game at our rivals field. We are ahead by one run going into their last at bat. The bases are loaded with two outs and their dugout is chirping and screaming at my son. Instead of letting it get to him, he strikes the last batter out and proceeds to put his finger to his lips in a shushing motion aimed at their dugout as he walks off the mound. Our coach gets on to him and says we don't act like that and I agree with the coach, but I also want my son to have the attitude that if your going to chirp at me I'm going to shove it down your throat and make you like it.

That's what I want form players and coaches at MSU. Jeff Brantley was an example of that from my perspective.

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Ethan small. Perfect example. Nobody has a problem with that. Love seeing it.

Now if he cusses out an umpire like the TN guy did or runs around the bases flipping off the outfielders, that's a problem.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Whatever. Nobody on that 2021 team ever assaulted an umpire or ran around the bases flipping off all the outfielders.

And why are you bringing race into this? A lot of the TN douschbage who assault umpires and flip off opponents while rounding the bases are white kids. I'd take a team full of Dakota Jordan's every day. Get out of here with that garbage.

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I literally watched Tanner Allen flip off the entire Tulane dugout in 2021 when he had a walk off hit. I also watched Ethan Small literally yell "F*** You" at the entire CMU dugout and the umpires in the 2019 regional.

And I wasn't bringing race into it. What I was conveying was that some of y'all want a bunch of old timey unathletic kids who just "play hard". Are they good? No. But they "play hard". Y'all want the most unathletic version of Hunter Stovall and you want 9 of them. And btw, Hunter Stovall wore chains, talked trash, and did everything y'all don't like. But no one said anything because he was our player doing it so it was ok. I'd take 9 Hunter Stovall's. He didn't back down from anyone, played with a brashness, but backed it up. Just like Tennessee does

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

I literally watched Tanner Allen flip off the entire Tulane dugout in 2021 when he had a walk off hit. I also watched Ethan Small literally yell "F*** You" at the entire CMU dugout and the umpires in the 2019 regional.

And I wasn't bringing race into it. What I was conveying was that some of y'all want a bunch of old timey unathletic kids who just "play hard". Are they good? No. But they "play hard". Y'all want the most unathletic version of Hunter Stovall and you want 9 of them. And btw, Hunter Stovall wore chains, talked trash, and did everything y'all don't like. But no one said anything because he was our player doing it so it was ok. I'd take 9 Hunter Stovall's. He didn't back down from anyone, played with a brashness, but backed it up. Just like Tennessee does

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Who is y'all? Who wants unathletic players? I've never see anybody say that they want unathletic versions of Hunter Stovall.

And I was standing right by that Tulane dugout on the Sunday game TA walked them off with the single to left. Now there was a ton of jawing that day and warnings issued. But Please tell me where he was when he flipped the dugout off, because I know it wasnt running to first. Also, please tell me which umpire and after which inning small told the umpire F you vs CMU in 2019. I was standing by the dugout and have watched the game several times and never seen it. I still have it and would love to go watch.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Who is y'all? Who wants unathletic players? I've never see anybody say that they want unathletic versions of Hunter Stovall.

And I was standing right by that Tulane dugout on the Sunday game TA walked them off with the single to left. Now there was a ton of jawing that day and warnings issued. But Please tell me where he was when he flipped the dugout off, because I know it wasnt running to first. Also, please tell me which umpire and after which inning small told the umpire F you vs CMU in 2019. I was standing by the dugout and have watched the game several times and never seen it. I still have it and would love to go watch.

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Damn. You were standing right by me at that Tulane game then! In the Triple Crown and I watched him say "F you" and flip them off. Now in his defense, they did it first so I guess he was just responding to them. The Small thing I was in the box for so was little higher and full disclosure had been drinking a bit but I seem to remember Small being pissed off about the strike zone and he struck the CMU guy out in the 2nd? inning and jawed at their dugout and when the ump told him to cool it he told him the same thing and Lemonis had to come out and talk to the ump after that one in between innings.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Damn. You were standing right by me at that Tulane game then! In the Triple Crown and I watched him say "F you" and flip them off. Now in his defense, they did it first so I guess he was just responding to them. The Small thing I was in the box for so was little higher and full disclosure had been drinking a bit but I seem to remember Small being pissed off about the strike zone and he struck the CMU guy out in the 2nd? inning and jawed at their dugout and when the ump told him to cool it he told him the same thing and Lemonis had to come out and talk to the ump after that one in between innings.

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Guess so!
Never saw him flip anybody off, and never small cuss out an umpire.

But TA is exactly the kind of kid we need more of. And he was a white private school kid. Just like mangum. And if take a roster full of them. Know you would too. Chance has some of that in him too and he's a white private school kid.

Just to clarify-

Yes we can be classy and win with class and that's OK.

But we need to emphasize being nice less and winning more.

why not only feed em when we win. 17em if they win, problem solved

Just be like the Oakland Raiders. Just win baby.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

I literally watched Tanner Allen flip off the entire Tulane dugout in 2021 when he had a walk off hit. I also watched Ethan Small literally yell "F*** You" at the entire CMU dugout and the umpires in the 2019 regional.

And I wasn't bringing race into it. What I was conveying was that some of y'all want a bunch of old timey unathletic kids who just "play hard". Are they good? No. But they "play hard". Y'all want the most unathletic version of Hunter Stovall and you want 9 of them. And btw, Hunter Stovall wore chains, talked trash, and did everything y'all don't like. But no one said anything because he was our player doing it so it was ok. I'd take 9 Hunter Stovall's. He didn't back down from anyone, played with a brashness, but backed it up. Just like Tennessee does

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Don?t think anyone wants unathletic kids. They want kids that have toughness and ability.

It doesn?t matter where they go to high school, plenty of pussies in public and private school. Have to dig deeper and watch them to know what kind of mentality they have.

I don't want 9 Hunter stovall's I love the kid. But 9 Hunter stovalls gets your ass whipped in this league.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

I don't want 9 Hunter stovall's I love the kid. But 9 Hunter stovalls gets your ass whipped in this league.

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This.... Your gonna have to sign the big time arms and get them to school like we did with Loftin, Holcmb, and Lo. Thats what you build off of. Now you sign a couple more next year, and then fill your bullpen with the decent arms that throw strikes and your set there.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

I don't want 9 Hunter stovall's I love the kid. But 9 Hunter stovalls gets your ass whipped in this league.

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His point, I believe, in saying ?i want 9 Stovalls? is referring to having 9 with his grittiness and toughness

I agree with the general sentiment here and would take it beyond baseball to MSU sports in general, especially football.

We have a segment of our fanbase who are afraid of success. They don't necessarily want us to lose, but they certainly don't want to do what it takes to win. These are the people who say things like:

-- "I don't want us to be ranked because we play better when we're the underdog."
--"We don't deserve a bowl game [or an NCAA tournament bid or a top seed in a regional]".
--"We shouldn't sign Jeffrey Simmons after what he did."

They are the first to advocate kicking a player off the team when he does something stupid, as if they get some sort of individual moral credit by making our team worse. And then we're shocked when we get no respect in the media or the polls.

They'd rather get patted on the head by other SEC schools for being good little losers and for being nice hosts than bludgeon the other team on the diamond, the court, or the gridiron.

winning is the most important thing to the overwhelming majority. Other things matter some too, but for the overwhelming majority, we want to win regardless of us being nice or mean or any other emotion.

Mason McRae does a good job with draft stuff and has good data on velocity, horizonal movement, vertical movement, and pitch shape. Based on his data, Mississippi State has two of the top 22 pitchers in college baseball when it comes to pure stuff. Nate Dohm and Colby Holcombe. Disclaimer on this is that this data does not take into account the result of the pitch or the location of the pitch. However, I say when you have two guys that have the kind of stuff that Dohm and Holcombe have, you shouldn't be this bad pitching. Those two would be the top two starters on many teams.

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Originally Posted by KB21

Mason McRae does a good job with draft stuff and has good data on velocity, horizonal movement, vertical movement, and pitch shape. Based on his data, Mississippi State has two of the top 22 pitchers in college baseball when it comes to pure stuff. Nate Dohm and Colby Holcombe. Disclaimer on this is that this data does not take into account the result of the pitch or the location of the pitch. However, I say when you have two guys that have the kind of stuff that Dohm and Holcombe have, you shouldn't be this bad pitching. Those two would be the top two starters on many teams.

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EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Dohm has very little movement on his fastball and does not have a third pitch. He is not an SEC starter. I am not saying he is not good pitcher. I believe he may be our best pitcher. But just like Landon in 21, he had two pitches. He was our best pitcher but he could not start. And Landon had movement on his fastball. Saying all that, we do not have the luxury of waiting to put Dohm in and hoping we have a lead. So we have to use him early. In a perfect world we get Cade back, put him on Saturday and Loftin/Gartman on Sunday and our weekends can look like this:

Fri: Loo, Dohm, Nixon
Sat: Smith, Pico, Hunt
Sun: Loftin/Gartman, Gartman/Loftin, Nixon

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At this point, if I?m Pico, I?m redshirting

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Dohm has very little movement on his fastball and does not have a third pitch. He is not an SEC starter. I am not saying he is not good pitcher. I believe he may be our best pitcher. But just like Landon in 21, he had two pitches. He was our best pitcher but he could not start. And Landon had movement on his fastball. Saying all that, we do not have the luxury of waiting to put Dohm in and hoping we have a lead. So we have to use him early. In a perfect world we get Cade back, put him on Saturday and Loftin/Gartman on Sunday and our weekends can look like this:

Fri: Loo, Dohm, Nixon
Sat: Smith, Pico, Hunt
Sun: Loftin/Gartman, Gartman/Loftin, Nixon

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That is a pretty competitve pitching group I think. However 4 in that group haven't been there most of year and 2 are freshmen. That group when healthy should be able to compete.

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Originally Posted by sandjunky

At this point, if I?m Pico, I?m redshirting

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I've heard rumors not to expect him back this year.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Dohm has very little movement on his fastball and does not have a third pitch. He is not an SEC starter. I am not saying he is not good pitcher. I believe he may be our best pitcher. But just like Landon in 21, he had two pitches. He was our best pitcher but he could not start. And Landon had movement on his fastball. Saying all that, we do not have the luxury of waiting to put Dohm in and hoping we have a lead. So we have to use him early. In a perfect world we get Cade back, put him on Saturday and Loftin/Gartman on Sunday and our weekends can look like this:

Fri: Loo, Dohm, Nixon
Sat: Smith, Pico, Hunt
Sun: Loftin/Gartman, Gartman/Loftin, Nixon

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Agree on lack of movement. Pitches on the same plane too often too.
But I will say his change up looked great in the first on Sunday. Arm side run to it and down at 89-90. Got two swing and misses. Then we just abandoned it