If I were in MSU's shoes- what I would do

Let's just get this out of the way- yes Lemonis should be fired and I don't think there is any turning it around at this point. His team is not playing baseball with the respect it deserves and it's absolutely sad to see because we at MSU are one of if not the standard bearer for SEC baseball. Absolutely ugly- guys fighting in the dugouts, having trouble with pop ups, giving away AB's, walks, etc.

My guess as to what happened most likely is I think it's two fold really.

1. We treated our players like pros instead of like college players. And you can't do that. Shouldn't expect a college kid to be mature enough or have the time to act like a pro. Sure there are a few alpha male super competitive types like Mangum and Ethan Small that can get away with it which is why both are about to be MLB players. College players need work on fundamentals constantly at all facets of the game. And they need to be made to do it. Part of their player development is teaching them how to be professional while they're here.

2. We relied way too much on analytics and it's led to fubar baseball. It got us away from our identity of blue collar hard working play the game harder than you baseball. We don't attack the strike zone. We allow opponents to show us up. We take poor selfish AB's at times. Our fundamentals suck.

Now that is out of the way how do we fix it?

1. You bring in Justin Haire. His style of play is the identity that fits MSU baseball. When Polk 2 got burned out and turned our program soft we fixed it by bringing in Cohen. Haire built Campbell along with Greg Goff with a blue collar mentality. His program is producing MLB players like Cedric Mullins and Zach Neto.

2. You hire the best pitching coach we can get. We can not be where we want to be without an elite pitching coach.

3. We need to recruit personality and character fit better like we did under Cohen. More Adam Frazier, Jake Mangum, and Tanner Allen and less Slade Alford.

At the end of the day Lemonis was not a good fit for MSU despite the National Championship. I think he is in over his head and is too lazy to succeed over the long run. I will never give him credit for the National Championship. That should go to John Cohen who built that team and program which Lemonis destroyed. I will never ever respect Chris Lemonis for what he did to our program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCo5SXXYq0w&t=1005s


Justin Haire Interview starts at 16:47

I like what he has done there. Sounds like he hasn?t finished the job he went there to do.

Fair to be very frustrated with Lemonis for the last two years, but not giving him any credit for the championship is not rooted in reality. He was doing an excellent job and then it went off the rails, for whatever reason, I will not pretend to understand exactly what has happened. But the answer does not have to be ?he sucks and actually he always has?. More to it than that. Things were going very well, and then they were not. It is a complicated and confusing turn of events, and I don?t think dumbing it down to ?Lemonis was never any good? is accurate at all.

I was convinced he would be back next year but I am getting less certain. The bare minimum threshold to be back for 2024 was not high, and it is not exactly being met.

Justin Haire is a good coach but I am not sold on him as a no doubt, sure thing hire for an SEC school. The talent level Campbell has produced is impressive relative to their size, but there is still a world of difference in the SEC and the Big South. Plus his track record of success there is just over a couple of years. I cannot help but wonder if this guy would even be on our fans? radar if Campbell had not been in our Regional two years ago and played us close in that one game.

I still do not know if a change is being made. But if it is, my list would start with Dan Heefner.

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Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

Fair to be very frustrated with Lemonis for the last two years, but not giving him any credit for the championship is not rooted in reality. He was doing an excellent job and then it went off the rails, for whatever reason, I will not pretend to understand exactly what has happened. But the answer does not have to be ?he sucks and actually he always has?. More to it than that. Things were going very well, and then they were not. It is a complicated and confusing turn of events, and I don?t think dumbing it down to ?Lemonis was never any good? is accurate at all.

I was convinced he would be back next year but I am getting less certain. The bare minimum threshold to be back for 2024 was not high, and it is not exactly being met.

Justin Haire is a good coach but I am not sold on him as a no doubt, sure thing hire for an SEC school. The talent level Campbell has produced is impressive relative to their size, but there is still a world of difference in the SEC and the Big South. Plus his track record of success there is just over a couple of years. I cannot help but wonder if this guy would even be on our fans? radar if Campbell had not been in our Regional two years ago and played us close in that one game.

I still do not know if a change is being made. But if it is, my list would start with Dan Heefner.

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Squandering the opportunity he had at MSU is just disrespectful on so many levels.

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Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

I like what he has done there. Sounds like he hasn?t finished the job he went there to do.

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I don't know. The only coach that really ever made it known that he would be looking around is Dan Mullen. He initially said he thought he would only be there for two years too.

Cohen wasn't responsible for TA (Cann), sims (Cann), or Bednar (lemonis/foxhall).

We don't even sniff Omaha without those 3, so I can't give Cohen all of the credit for the national title.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Cohen wasn't responsible for TA (Cann), sims (Cann), or Bednar (lemonis/foxhall).

We don't even sniff Omaha without those 3, so I can't give Cohen all of the credit for the national title.

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I agree, it's players who have leadership ability that generates winning attitudes and championships. JWS had the best quote "coaches don't win games, players do, coaches just have to put players in a position to win games".

The first call I would make would be to Butch Thompson.

Haire would be in the list. I do have some concerns over the fact that he has only coached at Campbell even as an assistant.

Pat Hallmark and Lane Burroughs would also be in the list.

Butch wouldn?t be on my top 5 call list

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Originally Posted by sandjunky

Butch wouldn?t be on my top 5 call list

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He'd be on mine. He might not be number 1, but as far as guys we can realistically get, Butch would be a pretty good hire.

I would fire any MSU baseball coach that comes in last place--right then -=no questions asked--when we hire a Coach he is told-"If you came in last your ass is grass" by not firing that bucket sitting-lazy ass-no fundamentals lemonis-we get another year of last place baseball--and still people are questioning IF we fire Him or not.. FIRE THAT DUDE TODAY!

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Originally Posted by KOdawg1

He'd be on mine. He might not be number 1, but as far as guys we can realistically get, Butch would be a pretty good hire.

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Yeah, Butch is a darn good coach and knows our fan base, culture and expectations. Plus, he's a great guy. Very affable. Ran into him a couple of years ago and ribbed him about the CWS game in '19. He just laughed it off but admitted that it stung a bit.

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Originally Posted by Saltydog

Yeah, Butch is a darn good coach and knows our fan base, culture and expectations. Plus, he's a great guy. Very affable. Ran into him a couple of years ago and ribbed him about the CWS game in '19. He just laughed it off but admitted that it stung a bit.

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Butch maximizes the talent he has. He doesn?t have a talented team this year. Three weeks ago, they were struggling some. Now, they have won back to back series against SC and LSU and are positioned to be a 2 seed somewhere. He?s taken them to Omaha twice in the past 5 years. Auburn is probably one of the four worst jobs in the conference as well.

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Originally Posted by basedog

I agree, it's players who have leadership ability that generates winning attitudes and championships. JWS had the best quote "coaches don't win games, players do, coaches just have to put players in a position to win games".

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JWS also always said "it's not about the X's and O's, it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's ".
Same thing basically.

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Originally Posted by DownwardDawg

JWS also always said "it's not about the X's and O's, it's about the Jimmy's and Joe's ".
Same thing basically.

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Yep and JWS also said (I paraphrase), everyone has 300lb linemen and skilled athletes, its what you do with them that makes the difference in winning and losing.

Haire doesn't fire me up at all. It's weird our fan base is just running with that name.

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Originally Posted by tcdog70

I would fire any MSU baseball coach that comes in last place--right then -=no questions asked--when we hire a Coach he is told-"If you came in last your ass is grass" by not firing that bucket sitting-lazy ass-no fundamentals lemonis-we get another year of last place baseball--and still people are questioning IF we fire Him or not.. FIRE THAT DUDE TODAY!

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So you would have fired Cohen after 2015 before we won the sec in 2016

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Originally Posted by KB21

Butch maximizes the talent he has. He doesn?t have a talented team this year. Three weeks ago, they were struggling some. Now, they have won back to back series against SC and LSU and are positioned to be a 2 seed somewhere. He?s taken them to Omaha twice in the past 5 years. Auburn is probably one of the four worst jobs in the conference as well.

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Not having a talented team is the problem.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

So you would have fired Cohen after 2015 before we won the sec in 2016

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JC took over a different situation than lemonis. but i probably would have had Him on a short lease. JC didn't have the Carnegie hall of baseball at that time. but if we had fired Him I would have said he deserved it.

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Originally Posted by tcdog70

JC took over a different situation than lemonis. but i probably would have had Him on a short lease. JC didn't have the Carnegie hall of baseball at that time. but if we had fired Him I would have said he deserved it.

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I was just going off your statement that you would fire any State coach who finished last.
And if you applied that to Arkansas, you would have fired van horn after the 2016 season.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Squandering the opportunity he had at MSU is just disrespectful on so many levels.

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I mean I think at worst you have to call the Lemonis era a mixed bag. The guy did something no coach in our history has been able to do. Ron Polk and John Cohen only came close one time each. And it is not just our history, think of the Mike Martins and Dave Van Horns of the world who were/are at great programs and have not reached those heights. People want act like winning a championship is easy if you are at a blue blood, it freaking is not.

If this is the end for Lemonis, it is certainly a complicated legacy. The highest of highs and the lowest of lows, simply put. It is difficult to rationalize that the same coach who managed us beautifully in 2021 is the same guy who is 15-36 in SEC play since then. But it is where we are.

I don't think we treated the players like pros. I think the coaches thought they, themselves were pros. They stopped teaching/coaching as required at a top P5 program. These kids don't come in ready. You have to teach/coach still. Haire wouldn't be the top of my list or first few calls. He'd be on the list though.

A couple comments. I think Todd is right on with Lemonis' treating the players like pros. This is pretty much out there and how he's always been. He's a players coach in that he let's them kind of figure things out on their own and in some aspects do as they please. He doesn't want to show them up ever. This made sense for the teams Lemonis inherited a the beginning of his tenure. 2019-2021 rosters were loaded with gritty MSU type players that already knew the ways of MSU baseball. Lem kind of put his feet up and let the alphas be alphas and it created a great dynamic and obviously led to a special summer in 21'. These guys have all come and gone.

Now, I think we have an extremely talented team and I don't think that's in question. And I haven't been able to put a finger on the teams struggles, but this post kind of makes sense. The current roster has been treated like the 2019-2021 guys and its just backfired. These guys don't play with any enthusiasm and seem like they have nothing to prove. The group wasn't established enough to be treated like the 19-21 teams and Lem missed on that. The last two seasons have been embarrassing besides a couple players individual accomplishments.

I guess now either Lem is fired and we reset or hopefully he realizes this isn't working and retools his approach to 2024. Either way something has to change.

He can't suddenly transform himself and all of a sudden begin coaching and presenting himself in a way in which he never has before. He's done and if he is allowed to stay, we are done.

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Originally Posted by Pancho

He can't suddenly transform himself and all of a sudden begin coaching and presenting himself in a way in which he never has before. He's done and if he is allowed to stay, we are done.

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This is the way I see it. It's most likely the case.

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Originally Posted by Pancho

He can't suddenly transform himself and all of a sudden begin coaching and presenting himself in a way in which he never has before. He's done and if he is allowed to stay, we are done.

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Coaches are who they are- they dont change. They have to go thru the process to figure that out just like I did.

I'm a coordinator- not a HC. I hate all the paperwork, dealing with media and parents. I want to f'ing coach.

Now I do think it is possible for different coaches to fit certain groups of players more than others. Lemonis was clearly a great fit his first three years, but I do not think that should be confused with him not having to lift a finger to do anything. He still managed those teams well.

These last two teams are different personality-wise and he has evidently had a hard time adjusting to it.

One thing Todd mentioned that is spot on?we need a hard ass as our coach. John Cohen, for all his faults, coached players the right way. He recruited those type players and then he coached them and in reality got an awful lot out of them. Look back at that ?11 team. That team IMO epitomized MSU baseball and cohens tenure here. We had some guys that would become great but were freshmen. We were led by tough gritty dirt bag type guys. The type of guys that made MSU baseball of the 80s and 90s. That ?11 team was 7 outs from Omaha against a vastly superior team. We need a coach that recognizes what we are, recruits those kinda players?with elite guys sprinkled in?and creates that tough culture of grit determination and out working the opponent every day.

That is where lemonis failed. His best teams were ready made. Just like when stansbury, although he recruited his guys, had bowers, power, and Roberts to lead his best team. It is what it is. I feel like lemonis will get next yr but I?m fine if he doesn?t. But what we are seeing now is not acceptable with what we are as a program. And baseball is the one program where we can say that.

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

Haire doesn't fire me up at all. It's weird our fan base is just running with that name.

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Why not? He's had years of success (championships) at Campbell and even has them ranked this year. He's not just a random flash in the pan of the year.

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

Why not? He's had years of success (championships) at Campbell and even has them ranked this year. He's not just a random flash in the pan of the year.

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Bert Stare approves your message**

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

Why not? He's had years of success (championships) at Campbell and even has them ranked this year. He's not just a random flash in the pan of the year.

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Bad conference, not that long of track record, took about 4 years to get going at Campbell after following up a successful coach. If you are going to go the mid major coach route, he is good but not the top of my list.

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Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

Fair to be very frustrated with Lemonis for the last two years, but not giving him any credit for the championship is not rooted in reality. He was doing an excellent job and then it went off the rails, for whatever reason, I will not pretend to understand exactly what has happened. But the answer does not have to be ?he sucks and actually he always has?. More to it than that. Things were going very well, and then they were not. It is a complicated and confusing turn of events, and I don?t think dumbing it down to ?Lemonis was never any good? is accurate at all.

I was convinced he would be back next year but I am getting less certain. The bare minimum threshold to be back for 2024 was not high, and it is not exactly being met.

Justin Haire is a good coach but I am not sold on him as a no doubt, sure thing hire for an SEC school. The talent level Campbell has produced is impressive relative to their size, but there is still a world of difference in the SEC and the Big South. Plus his track record of success there is just over a couple of years. I cannot help but wonder if this guy would even be on our fans? radar if Campbell had not been in our Regional two years ago and played us close in that one game.

I still do not know if a change is being made. But if it is, my list would start with Dan Heefner.

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Well, it started with losing the top pitcher in the SEC and maybe the nation in Landon Sims. Then we lost our next two best hurlers as well. That in itself was devastating. We had depth, but it wasn't quality depth. Just not good enough to win games. And this year, we still haven't replaced what we lost in 22'. Gartman was our best portal get, but even he has struggled at times.....and we still just don't have the experienced pitching depth in 23'. Hitting has improved. But not enough to cover the pitching deficiencies. We got caught with our pants down on having a lack of EXPERIENCED quality pitching.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Cohen wasn't responsible for TA (Cann), sims (Cann), or Bednar (lemonis/foxhall).

We don't even sniff Omaha without those 3, so I can't give Cohen all of the credit for the national title.

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Concur, giving that credit to Cohen is stupid.