What gives?
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What gives?
1) Ray left him nothing, year 5 on is fair but not the first year
2) We have no history, facilities, or fan support.
3) In light of that, being mediocre isn't really fireable. It's just not.
Now you and I can go "I don't care to follow a .500 basketball team, so I'd rather take the chance on a new coach and maybe we can be good enough for me to care" but that's not how Cohen has to look at it. Howland is mediocre, the culture is fine, the talent isn't bad. Let him coach 2 more years, retire, and then we'll be a much much more attractive place to coach vs if we fire a proven, well respected .500 in the SEC coach
Call me crazy but as much as I fully believe Ray was a bad hire, I truly believe if you gave him this talent level the record would be the same if not better
A good coach creates fan support which will lead to better facilities and a history of winning. Until we have that first thing we will never have the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
Truth hurts, but it's the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
So give me a number last 3 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
1. That's fair.
2. So you think that if we were consistently doing good and could actually pull out some major wins we still wouldn't have any fan support? Explain the years that we were exciting to watch when the Hump was packed.
Instead, we drop some that should be W's, and may squeeze out one we shouldn't once or twice a year. And the reason for the random W's is questionable.
3. So we should just settle for the same as the previous 4-5 years and not make a change so that Howland can coast to retirement from MSU? How long does it take to get a program turned around? He's gotten his guys in place. Same results though. I'm sure there are plenty of new age, up and coming coaches that will gladly take a coaching position in the SEC. Do I want Cohen to handle the hire? No, but that doesn't appear that it's going to change.
If fan support is what you are after, the ship has sailed unless Howland has some sort of renaissance. Highly unlikely.
These same threads year after year saying the same exact things surely must not be a sign.
Men's basketball at Msu has been dead for much of our History. Our greatness was with the Babe, when he left we may have had one or two Coaches with a winning record. I don't have the answer but I can say, we will never e elite nor consistently good.
I'm pretty sure I have a better chance of winning the Lottery than our program ever being a consistent winner. Don't believe me, look it up. Not to fret, most Sec schools basketball program is bad as well.
Rick StandsQuote:
Originally Posted by Dawsonmsu
39-41 first 5 years
And was hired coming off a sweet 16 and final 4 appearance
Does that clear it up a little ?
My advice for basketball is to just not care. Nothing is changing anytime soon.
We are 12 points from being 7-2 in conference this year (Kentucky, Texas A&M & Tennessee). Also take into account that we played the best team in the conference this year on the road as well as anyone. Alabama's margin of victory in conference play is 16pts. We lost by 8 and still had a chance to win the game until the last minute or two. Our next 4 conference games are very winnable (@arkansas, @SC, LSU & Auburn). Let the season play out.
That’s fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
So what’s your solution ?
We haven’t been relevant since the 1994-95 , 95-96 teams .. if we can call that relevant
So if we make it to the sweet 16 next year you back in ?
If somehow pull a 2008-09 off and win the sec and make the dance you back in ?
Or is it just I hate the coach I’m not supporting till we fire him situation..
Some people aren’t basketball fans period .. that’s fine .. I get it .. but usually those are the ones that just show up for the negativity thus making them part of the problem..
If we can't blow up the Hump and get new facilities, there's no point. We've got terrible facilities. It starts there. If Howland can't get us in the tournament next year, he should be fired. I can give him a pass this year due to youth. Next year is the proving ground. Go hire a decent mid-major coach and hire a good recruiting staff at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Gold
I can tell you from my coaching experience in Basketball, there is a reason coaches aren't interested in coming to Msu. If I have to explain the reason then you don't understand anyway nor would you*
That could be true. What Ray got left with was the death penalty and why some of the stupid rules now in NCAA can leave a program destroyed. Rules should be setup to not leave a program where they don't even have 5 scholarship players.Quote:
Originally Posted by PGHBulldogBG
The rules to give all the power to the athletes has really put coaches in a bad spot. Oats at Bama has figured it out as long as they are hitting shots. That formula works. Bama players said so. They like the freedom to play streetball, fire up threes or dunks. Just play D and you get the right to do that.
Street ball yes, watching Ga and Ark girls the other night was very entertaining as it was run up and down the court and quick shooting. It's the new way the game has turned into. Forget holding the ball and running an offense, motion offense which has a few simple rules is what the game is about. Just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by R2Dawg
So you don?t know either. Explain it for us big shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by basedog
LOL, oh I know but obvious you don't, go look at the history of ex coaches we have had. Name one that has gone to another school with success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
History isn't on Msu side. Big shot, made me laugh.
Well, Big Shot.....don't try and educate these geniuses. Don't you know that the 2nd string QB and the next coach are the ones that will lead us to the land of milk and honey......Quote:
Originally Posted by basedog
LOL that’s why I said if you ask then you wouldn’t understand anyway. I wonder if Bert Stare knows who are next Basketball Coach will be*Quote:
Originally Posted by AROB44
I?m sure Cohen would never consider him because he?s a fantastic coach. But I want DeVries from got to love the Drake
Stands was not hired coming off the sweet 16 and final four. That final four was March of 96. The next year, 96-97, we had 5 new starters and sucked. Were .500. Then Stans was hired prior to the 97-98 season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Gold
But yea, it took him 4 years to get it rolling. By 2002 through 2005, we were really good. I'm not sure Ben will get the program there. But honestly, if he can just make the tourney as often as he misses it, I think that will be acceptable.
Not saying we weren't good under Stans in the 00's, but the SEC on average was a good bit weaker for much of that period, with the added benefit of a pathetic Western division making up a good portion of the schedule.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
I loved nothing more than our basketball program from mid 90's through 2009-10. We were consistently successful, our home court atmosphere was terrific (before every game on TV) and we were receiving some national media recognition, but I will be the first to acknowledge that era is gone, that culture and desire for basketball from our fanbase has declined greatly and I believe the recruiting areas from which we were successful then are also gone (Jackson, specifically and most of Mississippi) for players that can consistently compete today. The urban areas are where the recruits are mostly now and the cultural difference between Starkville and urban America is vast; thus, they likely have little interest in coming to Starkville if they have many other options. I believe other coaching prospects are also conscious of these facts and consider them true risks in taking a job in Starkville; thus, as a program, we need to be careful in just thinking we can change coaches and get alot of improvement there because I have my doubts. My most realistic desire is for Howland to improve his assistant staff at least to one that can teach guard oriented offensive strategy and how to attack the different types of defenses and maintain Howland for a longer period of time. Surely we can have one assistant who can specialize in offensive teaching and not just be another recruiter leaving Howland to teach defense and rebounding.
Rick was part of the staff in 96-97 and lead recruiter, and his first season as head coach he returned 3 of his top 5 scores from that team..Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
So he wasn’t taking over a complete shit show like CBH did ..
Stands inherited a loaded team. 2 guys got a cup of coffee in the NBA. Dietrick White was a beast. That team when Williams was the HC was expected to be an NCAA team that season. Williams had to step down and Stands made an NCAA Tourney type team an NIT teamQuote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
Stands was 39-41 in SEC play after 5 seasons. Then the Baylor scandal happens and Lawrence Roberts drops in his lap, we have the wonderful '03-'04 season with the Road Warriors, lose 1 key player (Bowers) for '04-'05 and go 9-7 in league play. How do you go 9-7 with Roberts, Power, Ervin, Frazier and Harper???? Yeah, we made the NCAA - But that team had enough talent to win the league again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Here to read the pathetic excuses....he is ?a year away? though.*Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawsonmsu
The stans hate by some is so obvious. Did he bang your mothers? Just admit he had our program relevant and an impassioned fan base. The decision to fire him killed our program.
I'm prob one of the only persons on here that can acknowledge that who also is a supporter of Howland. I don't think Ben will ever reach the ceiling stans reached here (4 straight tourneys), but I do think he can get us to be a consistent bubble team.
"Loaded"Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
"Dietrick White was a beast"
Trying too hard.
Ask any player on that team or teams prior how good that guy was and could / should have been...Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
Correction. We sucked 96-97 season and 97-98 season. Stans was hired prior to the 98-99 season. In his 14 seasons, we made 6 NCAA appearances and 5 NIT appearances. That is about as much as we can realistically expect from Ben.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
I'm not a Stans hater - I've always looked it as a Stans realist. He was a good coach for us. But, people placed an unrealistic expectation on our program under him and Howland. Your last sentence even shows it - we've been a bubble team for 3 years now and "you think" he can get us to that level??Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
We are nowhere close to a bubble team right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
But I do think coming into this year it was fair to say Ben had gotten us to that point. And I think next year should be a tourney team. He is getting close to where stans had us, he just needs a few more tourneys. Stand made the ncaa 37.5% of the time here. Ben is at 17% unless he makes it this year.
If Stans and Howland had the records they had at MSU with under rated kids and didn?t get a bunch of 4 and even 5 stars then their work would?ve been great. Both of them are great recruiters but average coaches at best. This is why I would take Buzz Williams and Frank Martin any day. They might not know how to recruit, but they always get max effort out of their talent. Other coaches in this bucket include Bob Huggins, Chris Beard, Tony Bennett etc. Brad Underwood is another good one. I just wish we could find a coach that always maximized talent
The excuses for Howland on these threads are just mind boggling. Yes, we're poor old MSU and we just can never be more than mediocre. So we never are.
Stans had down years too. So did Williams.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
And everyone expected this to be a down year because we lost 4 starters. We were picked 12 in the SEC for a reason and yet are currently tied for 6th. We have a damn good shot at finishing top half of the league - and people want to ignore that that is a positive.
Not me. That is a positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
It's not the down years that is bens problem. It's the lack of tourney appearances. One in six years is not enough. He needs at least two in six years. Maybe he can win the sec tourney this year and make it two in six years.
Convenient that it got cancelled last year or that more likely than not would have been your two in six.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say