Only ways this works

1) OL must block better. WAY better

2) QB can't throw picks

3) Must run the ball some to punish them for dropping 8. (#1 applies to this as well)

4) Must be able to throw deeper routes, which again points to #1. Better blocking of a 3 man rush leads to having tons of time for the zone to get spread and guys to become more open in deeper areas.

So better blocking (#1) and eliminate the picks (#2)? Sounds simple but we haven't been close the last few weeks on these two key objectives.

Am I way off?

No I don't think you are off.

That's why I am expecting Rogers to start Saturday along with a re-worked offensive line.

I think our season depends on Rogers now. If he is able to manage the game and cut down the turnovers we will be fine. If he isn't ready we're screwed. Which is a possibility given that he is a freshman.

I think given a little game time Will will be alright, after all he's run this offense his whole life. He put up some amazing numbers In HS.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

1) OL must block better. WAY better

2) QB can't throw picks

3) Must run the ball some to punish them for dropping 8. (#1 applies to this as well)

4) Must be able to throw deeper routes, which again points to #1. Better blocking of a 3 man rush leads to having tons of time for the zone to get spread and guys to become more open in deeper areas.

So better blocking (#1) and eliminate the picks (#2)? Sounds simple but we haven't been close the last few weeks on these two key objectives.

Am I way off?

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The only way we'll be able to throw deeper routes will be to get defenses to play more people up at the line. And to do that you have to have a threat to gash them with the run, hence why the RPO was created. Our little delay draws won't cut it. It's too telegraphed and slow developing.

Also, defenses are giving us the 2-3 yard check downs cause they know their LBs can make a play on it and playing it downfield while watching the QBs eyes.

Leach is never going to have all day long to sit back and throw these deep patterns in this conference. You have better speed rushers, faster LBers and safeties. If he had 4.5 seconds to throw in the pac 12, it'll be 3 max in the SEC. And the closer you get to the end zone the harder it will get.

We'll never be able to accumulate the perfect OLine, perfect WRs, and perfect QB to make things aline to do what he wants.

Even if Rogers makes mistakes, I can live it because he isn't a 5 year senior thought to be a 1st or 2nd round draft pick. Also, we would be setting him up for great success next year.

In 2018 and 2019, Leach's offense ranked 1st in most offensive categories. However, in 2018 and 2019 his offense ranked near the bottom in the PAC12 in yards per attempt and yards per completion. His offense ranked last in rushing attempts and rushing yards.

What you have seen is what we will get from here on out..... dink and dunk until we score or have a mistake to put us behind the chains/then punt or turnover. State is just going to have to cut down on turnovers and penalties to avoid being behind the sticks.

The offense will work if we cut down on turnovers, even if the OL does not show a ton of improvement. If you really look at it, we have moved the ball some the last few games. The turnovers have just been decimating.

If we just don't turn the ball over at an alarming rate (12 the last two games, yea I'm counting the 2 turnovers on downs vs ark), we are 3-0. It's not that complicated.

There is nothing wrong with taking 5 yards every play, which is there. That's the primary counter to the drop 8, even if you can't run the ball. Sit down 5 yards past the center. It has been there every time, literally. We've just killed ourselves with turnovers and penalties and not taking the 5 yards every play.

Turnovers are the only reason we aren't undefeated. We haven't even been able to get field goals on some of these drives where we make it most of the way down the field. Obviously you would prefer TD's, but settling for a field goal is still way better than turning it over and getting nothing. And that would've made a difference in both of the last two games for us. If you merely replace these pick sixes and interceptions deep in opponent territory with field goals then we are sitting at 3-0. Turn those plays into TD's and we win both games comfortably.

If it's not there, don't force it. If it is there, hit the open receiver. I realize that the zone makes things more of a grind for this offense, and the o-line play has to get better too, but just executing the little things will go a long way.

We're 1-2 and have looked awful our last two games, and yet I still feel like every game other than Georgia and Bama is winnable the rest of the way if we just protect the ball better.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

No I don't think you are off.

That's why I am expecting Rogers to start Saturday along with a re-worked offensive line.

I think our season depends on Rogers now. If he is able to manage the game and cut down the turnovers we will be fine. If he isn't ready we're screwed. Which is a possibility given that he is a freshman.

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Will is not starting Saturday.

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Originally Posted by HaggardDawg

Will is not starting Saturday.

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He's going to play a lot.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

If we just don't turn the ball over at an alarming rate (12 the last two games, yea I'm counting the 2 turnovers on downs vs ark), we are 3-0. It's not that complicated.

There is nothing wrong with taking 5 yards every play, which is there. That's the primary counter to the drop 8, even if you can't run the ball. Sit down 5 yards past the center. It has been there every time, literally. We've just killed ourselves with turnovers and penalties and not taking the 5 yards every play.

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Taking the 5 yards every time is not the solution. Got to get some chunk plays off of those. We can't throw 15 five yard passes every series.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

He's going to play a lot.

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If KJ starts, he better be on the tightest leash ever.

Your are not far off in my mind but maybe on the running aspect.

Leech's offense attacks space but not so much how that space is attacked with run vs pass is important. Run is just easier to coach and execute, that's why I think so many coaches don't like this pass happy style. Running is not any more effective than a properly executed short pass to the under defended space but that execution level is way easier to obtain from a handoff. Here are my thoughts on what needs to improve, in this order.

1) O-Line much block 3 and 4 man rushes with ease. That has to be the priority. That has to happen in order for this offense or any offense to work. It all starts up front. I am not optimistic this will change quickly. Our interior linemen are not used to blocking in space like they are being asked to do now. I am hoping they can at least keep improving though.

2) Limit turnovers from QB position -- that will be much easier to accomplish with better O-Line play

3) Better execution and timing on routes.. no more 2 of 4 WR's run the right route. No more running full out through the open zone area or not giving every play full effort. This only gets better with practice and/or benching guys that don't' get it. The best pro WR's find away to get open in a zone defense. Lots of NFL teams play man to man but they all swap coverages to zone throughout and if a WR can't learn Leech's requirements then they probably wont have a chance in the NFL and that's their goal


How will all this happen in such a short period of time? It won't, but I hope to see improvement along the way and get a win or two more this year. Hell, they could win this weekend. That defense looks to be pretty damn good. No turnovers and we in it. I think.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Taking the 5 yards every time is not the solution. Got to get some chunk plays off of those. We can't throw 15 five yard passes every series.

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Cooter, what's your solution for the 3/8? Somehow that 8 man zone has to be manipulated to allow some big plays.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Taking the 5 yards every time is not the solution. Got to get some chunk plays off of those. We can't throw 15 five yard passes every series.

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This is true but until they can execute the 5 yards that are given and then block 3 or 4 man rushes better those deep throws wont' be there.

It does remind me of the problem with Croom's West Coat issues. It did not matter who the defenders were, that group never learned to execute the plays. Croom's coaches did not have the ability to teach the West Coast to the players he had on campus even after years of trying it seemed to get worse.

Can Leech teach it? He has a track record of doing just that. He has had 18 years developing his system. Leech's system is easy to learn but hard to perfect. That's why they go through so much repetition. I for one think he can do it even if it takes him some time.

How many players have been "purged" so far?

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

He's going to play a lot.

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For sure. But I know he's not starting. KJ will have one more chance to get it going

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Taking the 5 yards every time is not the solution. Got to get some chunk plays off of those. We can't throw 15 five yard passes every series.

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1. You absolutely can if you had to. The two TD drives vs ark were 15 plays, 75 yards and 14 plays, 76 yards.
2. You won't have to. Once you prove you're willing to do it and score every possession, those 12-15 yard passes will be open. Nobody is saying it is the long term goal of the offense, but it is a solution to the drop 8.

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Originally Posted by TrapGame

Cooter, what's your solution for the 3/8? Somehow that 8 man zone has to be manipulated to allow some big plays.

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The idea that you can't go over top of a 3 deep zone (or quarters) is wrong. Bama does it every week. Your receiver gets on the corners toes at 20-25 yards and he has to turn his back and run with the wr. It's bump and run man at that point. 4 verts, or even 3, will occupy all deep guys. Just have to protect enough to allow it and a qb with enough arm (which I'm not sure kj has with his injury).

7 empty red zone trips, 10 turnovers(yikes), 3 pick 6's all in the last 2 games and thats the reason we're 1-2 instead of 3-0. You almost have to try to be that bad on offense, geez that's a super horrid stretch.

12 turnovers if you're counting turnovers on downs

We're somewhat moving the ball, but we keep stalling once we get into opponent territory and the zone becomes more tight.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

1. You absolutely can if you had to. The two TD drives vs ark were 15 plays, 75 yards and 14 plays, 76 yards.
2. You won't have to. Once you prove you're willing to do it and score every possession, those 12-15 yard passes will be open. Nobody is saying it is the long term goal of the offense, but it is a solution to the drop 8.

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I absolutely agree. You do it enough with consistency and you wont see drop 8. You give me 5 yards every play and I will be you like a drum. Nobody here would be mad if we handed the ball off 20 times in a row and got 5 yards each carry. I think the running backs have to be first read some and hit them in stride with a full head of steam going up field instead of the outlet where they turn there back to the defense to receive the ball. It's essentially a sweep/running play anyway. Do that enough and other things open up. And just don't give the dang thing away.

SEC defenses will take their chances on those 5 yard passes. Wait on a mistake. WR going to have to find the holes. Got to run it. Bucky can break it down better than me. Motion is our friend too. I watch an air raid team last week motion there back out and let the receivers block and clear on quick passes. Got 10 yards a pop. That opened up a deep pass for a 70 yard TD. I'm most worried about the OL. Can't get much without it. Back can't help with protection. Can't run it.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

1) OL must block better. WAY better

2) QB can't throw picks

3) Must run the ball some to punish them for dropping 8. (#1 applies to this as well)

4) Must be able to throw deeper routes, which again points to #1. Better blocking of a 3 man rush leads to having tons of time for the zone to get spread and guys to become more open in deeper areas.

So better blocking (#1) and eliminate the picks (#2)? Sounds simple but we haven't been close the last few weeks on these two key objectives.

Am I way off?

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For the most part, I agree. I don't think we need that many deep routes to be successful but we do need some 15 yard type success which I think we can do. We have talent in all areas, just need to clean up our execution.

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

7 empty red zone trips, 10 turnovers(yikes), 3 pick 6's all in the last 2 games and thats the reason we're 1-2 instead of 3-0. You almost have to try to be that bad on offense, geez that's a super horrid stretch.

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In reality it is 4 pick 6. One was an 85 yard return to the goal line. How many years do most teams go before they have 4 pick 6? We did that in 3 games. If we don't do those passes, we could be 2-1 worst case and maybe still 3-0.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

SEC defenses will take their chances on those 5 yard passes. Wait on a mistake. WR going to have to find the holes. Got to run it. Bucky can break it down better than me. Motion is our friend too. I watch an air raid team last week motion there back out and let the receivers block and clear on quick passes. Got 10 yards a pop. That opened up a deep pass for a 70 yard TD. I'm most worried about the OL. Can't get much without it. Back can't help with protection. Can't run it.

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Saw that 10 yards a pop too. Loose zone. Swung it to back behind line of scrimmage. Wr blocking zone defenders Easy pick up if your wr block.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

SEC defenses will take their chances on those 5 yard passes. Wait on a mistake. WR going to have to find the holes. Got to run it. Bucky can break it down better than me. Motion is our friend too. I watch an air raid team last week motion there back out and let the receivers block and clear on quick passes. Got 10 yards a pop. That opened up a deep pass for a 70 yard TD. I'm most worried about the OL. Can't get much without it. Back can't help with protection. Can't run it.

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OL is a challenge. I don't like the wide splits. Putting OL on an island with the best/fastest DL in the nation every week. Most teams OL would have issues with those gaps. Imagine lining up against Sweat a few years ago? Nasty. Half teams in SEC have that.

I went back and watched the Kentucky game and the one thing that stood out even more than normal was the lack of playmakers at the WR position. Very little separation, very little YAC, almost always losing 50/50 balls. It was depressing.

I'm not sure how that gets fixed except through recruiting.

The OL problems that people have touched on, but I think the bigger issue is that for years we recruited big OL that can run block first and pass block when needed. Now it is pass block 80% of the game. I'm not sure we have recruited the right type of OL for this offense. Dollar Bill is meant to be a road grader, not a pass blocking OT. I swear this reminds me of the 2012 OL where we had solid talent, but the guys weren't built to pass block for a immobile QB.

I understand we hired Leach to do it all, but I think the LSU game made us all forget that we are switching from a run first offense to a pass first offense and those transitions can be ugly - just ask Arkansas when they went from Ground and Pound to Chad Morris spread. I really think this year will be a struggle because of personnel issues and Leach will not adjust his offense to fit his talent. Mullen to his credit in his first season by the end of the year figured out some stuff that worked and kicked the shit out of the bears with Relf and Dixon. I hope Leach finds something that works and can rally the troops.

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Originally Posted by KOdawg1

We're somewhat moving the ball, but we keep stalling once we get into opponent territory and the zone becomes more tight.

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Good point, this worries me. We scored outside red zone most of time at LSU. The redzone pushes their drop 8 up and then we can't run or throw short passes. We saw that at UK. Lots of challenges in front of us for this O to work.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

I went back and watched the Kentucky game and the one thing that stood out even more than normal was the lack of playmakers at the WR position. Very little separation, very little YAC, almost always losing 50/50 balls. It was depressing.

I'm not sure how that gets fixed except through recruiting.

The OL problems that people have touched on, but I think the bigger issue is that for years we recruited big OL that can run block first and pass block when needed. Now it is pass block 80% of the game. I'm not sure we have recruited the right type of OL for this offense. Dollar Bill is meant to be a road grader, not a pass blocking OT. I swear this reminds me of the 2012 OL where we had solid talent, but the guys weren't built to pass block for a immobile QB.

I understand we hired Leach to do it all, but I think the LSU game made us all forget that we are switching from a run first offense to a pass first offense and those transitions can be ugly - just ask Arkansas when they went from Ground and Pound to Chad Morris spread. I really think this year will be a struggle because of personnel issues and Leach will not adjust his offense to fit his talent. Mullen to his credit in his first season by the end of the year figured out some stuff that worked and kicked the shit out of the bears with Relf and Dixon. I hope Leach finds something that works and can rally the troops.

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LSU game didn't make us forget, it made us think that the switch was done. Talking heads said it, guess the air raid will work in SEC. Who wouldn't think that setting an SEC record?

The biggest problem in the KY and Ark games were that we let them get ahead early.

This offense will work, but you have to be patient in the beginning. If we are able to just dink and dunk patiently and get a score or two early, no coach is going to let their D stay in a drop 8 even if it's their best chance to win.

WE HAVE TO BE PATIENT EARLY AND NOT FORCE THINGS. Now the problem is KJ is not seeing things well. The screen pass that was picked off was a terrible decision. The receiver was getting tackled as the ball left KJ's hand.

Once KY got up by a couple of scores they weren't going to get out of the drop 8 even if they gave up a score.

In summary and I'll add a couple points,

-Be patient early but it's crucial that we score first
-no turnovers trying to force passes
-receivers when they catch the ball have to get the yards they can. They can't dance or try to juke. Guaranteed 4-5 yards is better than 1-2 yards with big play potential

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

LSU game didn't make us forget, it made us think that the switch was done. Talking heads said it, guess the air raid will work in SEC. Who wouldn't think that setting an SEC record?

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I agree, such fools gold. Also such a good reminder how important coaching is. I don't believe that LSU is less talented than Arkansas and Kentucky defensively. They simply refused to adjust to the air raid and got boat raced by Leach. Its possible more coaches may still be stubborn and not switch to the Husky 3-8 defense, but I think it would be coaching malpractice at this point if you didn't switch to the 3-8.

What needs to happen is Leach needs to adjust to the 3-8 defense being played by SEC level athletes. DL in a 3-8 can put pressure on the QB. The back 8 on an SEC defense can create turnovers and make tackles. I was watching the Wazzu/Oregon 2018 game and the Oregon tackling was atrocious. So many 3 yard plays turned into 8-12 yard plays. That is not happening for us. It needs to.

To add to my above post, I don't understand our receivers and backs dancing when they get the ball. The big play isn't going to happen against drop 8 when you catch it 3yards past the LOS. Even if you get someone to miss you may only pick up 2 more yards(yards that you could have gotten if you just ran straight ahead anyway.)

To me this is almost as big a problem as the Oline. The dancing only gives us 2 yards a catch instead of 4 which puts us behind the sticks for the dunk and dunk to work.

Once in the red zone, those 8 defenders don't have as much area to cover. And we don't run. Lots of INT opportunity.

2018: WashSt was #1 in PAC with red zone td %. (Minshew)

2019: WashSt was #7 in PAC at 59% red zone TD. (No Minshew)

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

SEC defenses will take their chances on those 5 yard passes. Wait on a mistake. WR going to have to find the holes. Got to run it. Bucky can break it down better than me. Motion is our friend too. I watch an air raid team last week motion there back out and let the receivers block and clear on quick passes. Got 10 yards a pop. That opened up a deep pass for a 70 yard TD. I'm most worried about the OL. Can't get much without it. Back can't help with protection. Can't run it.

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You definitely have to be consistent and patient to 5 yard them to death. I was just saying it could be done(we aren't doing it) to get teams out of the 3-8 in order to take shots. And you and I have both said to hit the back out of the back field much quicker (screens, swing pass, etc.) so they are not having to slow down or put there back to the defense. Losing a lot of yac with the way we are doing it. The back can't be the safety valve every play. Got to be design to him first some, especially against 3-8. But I guess all that means squat if you OL is like a screen door and the DL is like a breeze.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

If we just don't turn the ball over at an alarming rate (12 the last two games, yea I'm counting the 2 turnovers on downs vs ark), we are 3-0. It's not that complicated.

There is nothing wrong with taking 5 yards every play, which is there. That's the primary counter to the drop 8, even if you can't run the ball. Sit down 5 yards past the center. It has been there every time, literally. We've just killed ourselves with turnovers and penalties and not taking the 5 yards every play.

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5 yards is 5 yards run or pass. Who would not run every time if you could get 5 yards.

5 yards.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

1) OL must block better. WAY better

2) QB can't throw picks

3) Must run the ball some to punish them for dropping 8. (#1 applies to this as well)

4) Must be able to throw deeper routes, which again points to #1. Better blocking of a 3 man rush leads to having tons of time for the zone to get spread and guys to become more open in deeper areas.

So better blocking (#1) and eliminate the picks (#2)? Sounds simple but we haven't been close the last few weeks on these two key objectives.

Am I way off?

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Do 1-3 and number 4 takes care of itself. Really do 1-2 and 3-4 will take care of themselves.

1 and 2 are the real problems, along with WRs not blocking on the edge or running precise/correct routes. 3 and 4 are symptoms of those problems.

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Originally Posted by Percho

5 yards is 5 yards run or pass. Who would not run every time if you could get 5 yards.

5 yards.

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Not many would. Because eventually that gets taken away. The difference is the ball is in the air when you throw it. Chance for mistakes is larger. But nobody wants to watch 5 yards every pass play either. That's some boring ass football.